# A big 'ol "Fuck YOU!" to the PETA jackass at the circus **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 25, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945 "2009-01-25T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/221 "2009-01-27T10:16:18Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > it took the White Night Riots to get people to start talking about LGBT rights; Dude, get it right. Stonewall. .. Hm. You don’t have much sense of historical context, do you? You think Dresden stopped the Germans? I think you might have been served poorly by the educational system. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/222 "2009-01-27T10:25:51Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Dude, get it right. Stonewall. I was going to say Stonewall, but I felt the White Night Riots were more overtly political, and thus more fitting for what I was going for. Not to mention that LGBT rights still weren’t far along at all in 1979. When I say “get people to start talking about LGBT rights”, I mean society in general, not like-minded lefties. > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > You think Dresden stopped the Germans? No, I don’t. I was giving an example of an atrocity which was viewed as a necessary part of the war effort at the time. Similar behavior in a modern war would probably be labeled a war crime and we would be calling for that country’s Commander-in-Chief to be strung up with piano wire. But at the time, it was deemed necessary and the world went along with it because it saw a greater good. Hostile Dialect, Hostile Dialect, Narcissist ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/223 "2009-01-27T10:50:32Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > [Fish in Tanks? No Thanks.](http://www.peta.org/factsheet/files/FactsheetDisplay.asp?ID=30) > > You had to ask. Holy fucking hell but these people are menaces to the civilized world. I don’t do aquariums any more but I did at one point; one of the really fun parts is to re-create a natural environment for the fish in the tank. The hobby cost me tons of money and I never abused a fish in my life; in fact, I worked very hard to keep my fish happy and healthy. They rewarded me by eating regularly and, in the case of certain kinds of fish, reproducing like crazy. I’ll admit that I failed to provide a well equipped workshop where the fish might make the tools they supposedly use. I suppose that if I had provided such a workshop, they might have manufactured weapons and staged a break-out. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/224 "2009-01-27T14:54:58Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > I do agree that the PETA crowd is bunch of lunatics (Free the goldfish!!!) …but unless they faked that video then circus elephants are or were being mistreated. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Coming from PETA, they could have faked it, gotten it from some third world country or it could have been decades old. I wouldn’t put it past PETA to have created a video in which one of their own does the mistreating. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/225 "2009-01-27T16:05:05Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > **kidchameleon** , you seem very angry. I’m not sure why. I was just trying to get you to address my point directly, and now you have. > > So you don’t think it’s ever OK to address someone’s else child regarding legal behavior? Do I have that correct? We are in the pit Anger permeates the air Common sense does not Well, we are talking about strangers, so I believe the general rule is no, you should address the parent. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/226 "2009-01-27T16:40:02Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > We are in the pit > Anger permeates the air > Common sense does not > > Well, we are talking about strangers, so I believe the general rule is no, you should address the parent. I am mollified by your haiku. So I’m gonna just rest on what’s been said. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/227 "2009-01-27T18:19:43Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > I was going to say Stonewall,[…] > > No, I don’t. I was giving an example of an atrocity which was viewed as a necessary part of the war effort at the time. Well, that’s a good answer. Wasn’t obvious in your post. I don’t agree, really, but it’s not worth arguing about, and it makes more sense than what you said. What you said sounded not entirely unsimilar to ‘Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?’ and I was going ‘Whaa… oh, fine, he doesn’t know Stonewall… wait DRESDEN ended the what now?’ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/228 "2009-01-27T19:43:56Z")
Hm. I actually know an elephant trainer – former elephant trainer, he’s going to college now. He did not work for a circus; rather, he worked the Renfest circuit for several years. I seem to recall he said he’d never work for Ringling Bros because he actually LIKED elephants. Pamphlets should be handed to adults, though. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/229 "2009-01-27T21:57:44Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > I never abused a fish in my life That’s what all the fish fuckers say. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/230 "2009-01-28T01:13:55Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > I suppose that if I had provided such a workshop, they might have manufactured weapons and staged a break-out. To be fair, worker fish have a right to unionize. > [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Well, that’s a good answer. Wasn’t obvious in your post. I don’t agree, really, but it’s not worth arguing about, and it makes more sense than what you said. > What you said sounded not entirely unsimilar to ‘Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?’ and I was going ‘Whaa… oh, fine, he doesn’t know Stonewall… wait DRESDEN ended the what now?’ Thanks for the acknowledgement. Just out of curiosity: which part do you disagree with? That the firebombing of Dresden was an atrocity or that it was considered militarily necessary at the time? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/231 "2009-01-28T04:24:21Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#): > > I’m in the citing mood today. [AKC](http://www.akc.org/breeds/poodle/) says they’re German. [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poodle) confirms. > > Also, as a completely meaningless bit of information, in the beginning of Goethe’s _Faust_, the eponymous (German) character is followed home by a black poodle, who in fact turns out to be the devil himself (which IMO proves that Goethe knew at least a couple Poodles. Nasty buggers.) Thank you **Ninjachick** and **Curlcoat**. I’ve started a [thread=503937]thread[/thread] in a milder place regarding poodles and poodle crosses that uses a bit of the info provided. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/232 "2009-01-28T04:40:16Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > No, I’m giving examples of reprehensible acts which play a part in raising our national awareness of certain issues. Equating the firey death of thousands with the comfort of chickens. > [@](#): > > Of course the answer is “yes”. That’s the very idea. You’re not the sharpest tool in the shed, are you? One hell of a lot sharper than you. Anyone who thinks that we should have animal rights laws forced on us for any reason is, at best, uninformed. Anyone who thinks that this should happen so chickens get more room than they need is just stupid. > [@](#): > > I can guess from the implication that your biggest civil rights problem is that you have to recalculate the dimensions of your chicken coop. Another reason you don’t look very smart, since you cannot even follow the discussion. I don’t have any chickens. > [@](#): > > I don’t have pets, no. Then you have no rights here. You can have all the opinions you want, but without any experience you have no right to be supporting what PETA is doing. > [@](#): > > I do eat meat. I consider it a moral failure on my part, but I pick my battles. Nobody is perfect. As to the relevance of this question–what, animals didn’t have meat until we bred it into them? If no one is breeding those cows, pigs, whatever, you won’t be able to go down to the grocery store and get that meat. > [@](#): > > It’s a nice thing for the blind people, although the “service dog” system is too easily exploited by rich white women from Orange County who want to take Fluffy everywhere with them…but that’s a story for another thread. One that I doubt is true. > [@](#): > > Anyway, as Kurt Vonnegut said, we make dogs think they were born into a world where it’s illegal to be a dog. I would imagine that this goes double for service dogs. Because? > [@](#): > > But I don’t see how that’s relevant, since the breed(s?) involved already exist and we can just train the puppies to do those jobs if we must. Not if we aren’t allowed to breed them! _ **This** _ is what PETA is trying to stop, responsible breeding of dogs ( and cats and cows and…) and to stop the “enslavement” of dogs to their blind owners. > [@](#): > > Wool is nice, but we could survive without it. Again, did sheep not grow wool before we bred it into them? See meat above. > [@](#): > > Nature is cruel. Man is worse. Nature causes far few extinctions than man. > [@](#): > > That’s a rather bizarre leap. Since you seem to have totally ignored what I said, I’ll repeat it in an easier form to read: > > \*\*My opinions on organized dog and horse sports range from total apathy to a slight tinge of disgust. \*\* > > Do you understand what “apathy” and “tinge” mean? I’m not an anti-horseracing activist, I just don’t like the sport for my own reasons. And you support an organization that spends an incredible amount of time and money trying to outlaw these sports. > [@](#): > > As for endangered species, why are they endangered? If it’s because of our practices, those practices are the real problem, and we need to stop them. Yes, it is such an easy thing, why didn’t someone else think of it? All we have to do is get places like Africa and South America to quit taking over the habitat of these animals! Simple as pie. > [@](#): > > If it’s because they couldn’t adapt to life in their natural environment, well, biology is a bitch sometimes. I find it fascinating that you suddenly want to save every creature on Earth, though. Which I didn’t say. > [@](#): > > Sorry, I meant [“rape stand”](http://www.slate.com/id/2170734/). I’ve fallen behind on my breeding lingo since Michael Vick stopped calling. (Seriously, though, I called it the wrong thing and I apologize for that.) If it is something Michael Vick used, you think this is a good example of responsible dog breeding? > [@](#): > > Yes, my ignorance is astounding. There, I fixed that for you. > [@](#): > > My bad. I’ll send in for my pamphlet from Phillip Morris right away. Might as well ask RJ Reynolds while I’m at it, no? This has what to do with the subject? > [@](#): > > Actually, plenty of people in this thread–and _many_ others–disagree quite forcefully with my views. For example, **What Exit?** disagrees with me on this and probably at least a handful of other topics, yet we get along just fine. You’re the only one I call a loony. Hint: It’s because you babble on and on about your paranoid delusions. Which, if you would bother to research the issue at all, you would find are neither paranoid nor delusions. Start with breed specific legislation, work up to mandatory spay/neuter laws, check into owner restrictions. Look into that legislation just passed regarding the housing of chickens. You don’t have pets, nor any farm animals. What makes you think you have any idea what the issues are? The concept of animal “rights” and chickens living like humans makes you feel good all over, but that is only because you obviously have no clue about what humane treatment of animals actually means. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/233 "2009-01-28T05:17:21Z")
> [@me](#): > > Which, if you would bother to research the issue at all, you would find are neither paranoid nor delusions. Start with breed specific legislation, work up to mandatory spay/neuter laws, check into owner restrictions. Look into that legislation just passed regarding the housing of chickens. You don’t have pets, nor any farm animals. What makes you think you have any idea what the issues are? The concept of animal “rights” and chickens living like humans makes you feel good all over, but that is only because you obviously have no clue about what humane treatment of animals actually means. Here **Hostile Dialect** , I’ll give you a start, just cause I’m nice that way… > **[National Animal Interest Alliance](https://naiaonline.org/body/articles/archives/animalrightsquote.htm)** > > National Animal Interest Alliance - The mission of NAIA is to promote animal welfare, to strengthen the human-animal bond, and safeguard the rights of responsible animal owners. Remember, that is just a starting place. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/234 "2009-01-28T05:35:42Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Equating the firey death of thousands with the comfort of chickens. No more than I intended to equate the White Night Riots, which actually _were_ necessary and involved no deaths, with the Dresden firebombing. Which, for those of you who are a little slow, I didn’t. I don’t know how many times I need to repeat this: > [@me](#): > > I was giving an example of an atrocity which was viewed as a necessary part of the war effort at the time. > [@curlcoat](#): > > One hell of a lot sharper than you. Anyone who thinks that we should have animal rights laws forced on us for any reason is, at best, uninformed. Anyone who thinks that this should happen so chickens get more room than they need is just stupid. What inherent evil of animal rights laws is there that I have yet to be informed of? The “more room than they need” that you refer to means, IIRC, enough room to at least turn around every once in a while. When you say “more room than they need”, I think what you mean is “more room than I need them to have before I torture and kill them”. There was a doctor who used to think that way about people, too. I think he lived in Germany. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Another reason you don’t look very smart, since you cannot even follow the discussion. I don’t have any chickens. I’m glossing over details rather than employing strained, awkward syntax to account for every nuance of your doubtlessly illuminous career path. I just don’t care that much about your life. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Then you have no rights here. You can have all the opinions you want, but without any experience you have no right to be supporting what PETA is doing. I must’ve missed the part where I said that I’ve never had pets. Which is weird, because I’ve had pets for most of my life. Nope, it looks like I didn’t say that at all. Are you hallucinating again? What I said was: > [@me](#): > > I don’t have pets, no. > [@curlcoat](#): > > If no one is breeding those cows, pigs, whatever, you won’t be able to go down to the grocery store and get that meat. Good. That will be a positive step for me. > [@curlcoat](#): > > One that I doubt is true. I’ve met some of the rich white women from Orange County in question. In general, there are few regulatoins on which animals–especially which dogs–can be designated as “service animals”. And at least in my neck of the woods, there is no official vest or other designation for service animals, meaning that anyone can buy an official-_looking_ vest (or whatever) and throw it on their animal, and thereby abuse the system. When you take your service animal–who may or may not be well-behaved, and may or may not shit all over some hapless capitalist’s business–somewhere, nobody is going to be callous/cynical enough to actually find a database of officially registered service animals and check yours. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Because? I’m no expert on dog training, but what I’ve seen in domestic dog training is that the animals are subject to constant discipline so that their behaviors become more human-like and more pleasing to their human masters. I assume from the nature of the work that service dogs undergo similar training _and_ job training, which means that they never have time to actually be dogs. > [@curlcoat](#): > > And you support an organization that spends an incredible amount of time and money trying to outlaw these sports. If by “support”, you mean “don’t actively oppose”, and “vaguely defend on a message board sometimes”, then, sure, but that’s about all I do. I care a lot about civil liberties and inalienable rights; the right to beat animals into submission for gambling purposes does not fall under either category, IMO. YMMV. > [@curlcoat](#): > > If it is something Michael Vick used, you think this is a good example of responsible dog breeding? I don’t see the concept of dog breeding as having the potential to ever be “responsible”, so I guess my answer would have to be “N/A”. > [@curlcoat](#): > > There, I fixed that for you. Reported. Thanks for the heads up. > [@curlcoat](#): > > This has what to do with the subject? I’m not going to write a primer on this thread for the particularly slow; it’s all right here, and you can do all the clicking and scrolling yourself if your memory is really that bad. > [@curlcoat](#): > > The concept of animal “rights” and chickens living like humans makes you feel good all over, but that is only because you obviously have no clue about what humane treatment of animals actually means. Yeah, I’m definitely going to start taking my cues from the guys who boil chickens alive. You’re the experts on humane treatment of animals, I assume? Maybe you should send me a pamphlet too. I’ll be sure to stick it right where the sun can shine on it. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/235 "2009-01-28T05:41:36Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > There, I fixed that for you. I know the “fixed that for you” joke is common at other message boards, but it is against the rules here so please refrain. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/236 "2009-01-28T06:20:58Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > I know the “fixed that for you” joke is common at other message boards, but it is against the rules here so please refrain. Oh, even in the Pit? Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/237 "2009-01-28T06:53:57Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > No more than I intended to equate the White Night Riots, which actually _were_ necessary and involved no deaths, with the Dresden firebombing. Which, for those of you who are a little slow, I didn’t. I don’t know how many times I need to repeat this: What you are ignoring, or maybe haven’t even bothered to find out, is that PETA both directly and thru ALF, has destroyed property and killed people in the name of “animal rights”. So when you compare (possibly) worthwhile atrocities to PETA’s acts, you indicate that you feel it is OK for PETA to go on destroying things and endangering lives (and harrassing children) to further their goal of eliminating pets and farm animals. > [@](#): > > What inherent evil of animal rights laws is there that I have yet to be informed of? Did you bother to look at the link? > [@](#): > > The “more room than they need” that you refer to means, IIRC, enough room to at least turn around every once in a while. When you say “more room than they need”, I think what you mean is “more room than I need them to have before I torture and kill them”. There was a doctor who used to think that way about people, too. I think he lived in Germany. Snort. All you are doing here is proving you know zero about chicken farming, since you quoted propaganda on two separate types, egg farmers and fryer farmers. Neither of which is true, but you are willing to swallow it whole for some reason. Have you even seen a chicken farm, of either kind, much less been in one? > [@](#): > > I must’ve missed the part where I said that I’ve never had pets. Which is weird, because I’ve had pets for most of my life. So, your claim to not have pets meant just right now. Cute. Do you not wish to ever have a pet again then? > [@](#): > > Good. That will be a positive step for me. And of course, what you want is all that is important, right? All those nasty meat eaters can just learn to go without. > [@](#): > > I’ve met some of the rich white women from Orange County in question. In general, there are few regulatoins on which animals–especially which dogs–can be designated as “service animals”. And at least in my neck of the woods, there is no official vest or other designation for service animals, meaning that anyone can buy an official-_looking_ vest (or whatever) and throw it on their animal, and thereby abuse the system. When you take your service animal–who may or may not be well-behaved, and may or may not shit all over some hapless capitalist’s business–somewhere, nobody is going to be callous/cynical enough to actually find a database of officially registered service animals and check yours. OK, assuming that you aren’t just watching “The Real Housewives of Orange County” here, even so you are completely wrong about the laws concerning service animals, even in Orange County, even in Irvine much to their dismay. Those who take a service animal into a business are subject to far more restrictions than those who take a baby in and change it’s diaper on a table within. Your bias against service animals (and apparently dogs in general) is noted, but fortunately the federal laws don’t support you. > [@](#): > > I’m no expert on dog training, but what I’ve seen in domestic dog training is that the animals are subject to constant discipline so that their behaviors become more human-like and more pleasing to their human masters. I assume from the nature of the work that service dogs undergo similar training _and_ job training, which means that they never have time to actually be dogs. You are far from an expert on dog training. If nothing else, one cannot subject _anything_ to constant discipline if one wants that animal/person/child to remain sane. There is no desire for human-like behaviors - trainers with an ounce of brains and experience do not consider their dogs “furchildren”. Dogs have to “be dogs” - that is what they are. Just because you have apparently run into some idiot PP clicker trainer doesn’t mean that is what dog training is all about, particularly training of guide and service dogs. > [@](#): > > the right to beat animals into submission for gambling purposes does not fall under either category, IMO. YMMV. Where do you get these ideas? > [@](#): > > I don’t see the concept of dog breeding as having the potential to ever be “responsible”, so I guess my answer would have to be “N/A”. So, again, you have no desire to ever have another pet? > [@](#): > > Reported. Thanks for the heads up. Whiner. > [@](#): > > I’m not going to write a primer on this thread for the particularly slow; it’s all right here, and you can do all the clicking and scrolling yourself if your memory is really that bad. So you can’t defend your position then? > [@](#): > > Yeah, I’m definitely going to start taking my cues from the guys who boil chickens alive. You’re the experts on humane treatment of animals, I assume? Maybe you should send me a pamphlet too. I’ll be sure to stick it right where the sun can shine on it. I’m pretty close to not wasting time on typing, much less the cost of a whole stamp. You obviously have no clue about the subject and are willing to swallow whole everything that PETA tells you. Which would be immaterial if you didn’t vote. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/238 "2009-01-28T08:41:09Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > What you are ignoring, or maybe haven’t even bothered to find out, is that PETA both directly and thru ALF, has destroyed property and killed people in the name of “animal rights”. I will assume for the sake of argument that PETA has directly destroyed property–it sounds like something that would go along with what they do–but I’ll wait for the cite before I believe that they’ve directly killed people. Non-loony cite, please, and neutral/reliable would be nice. > [@curlcoat](#): > > So when you compare (possibly) worthwhile atrocities to PETA’s acts, you indicate that you feel it is OK for PETA to go on destroying things and endangering lives (and harrassing children) to further their goal of eliminating pets and farm animals. Well, assuming that you mean “harrassing children” to apply to the situation described in the OP, I believe you’re talking about three separate things: - Destruction of property - Endangerment of human life (it was murder just one sentence ago, but nevermind, we’ll go with this new one) - Distributing propaganda to children As for destruction of property, I don’t see that as particularly dehumanizing or atrocious by nature. Again, I can’t find any sympathy in my heart for developers losing property or money. Nor Revlon (or anything like that). I see that as a problem of social adjustment more than an absolute moral failing, but I’m a bit of a pinko, so I see property differently than most Americans do. Moving on… Endangerment of human life? Sounds like a pretty big problem, and a huge moral failing, but the questions in my mind are: - Is this behavior systematic? - Is it a direct goal of the organization or is it incidental to their direct goals? - Is this behavior part of a widespread policy or is it the result of PETA failing to weed out its more demented activists? I don’t expect you to have definitive answers for those; to some extent it’s impossible to know these things from outside of the organization. Distributing propaganda to children? Most major religions do that, and in the case of Judeo-Christian religions in particular, the propaganda is just as gory while being much more morally suspect, IMO. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Did you bother to look at the link? I try not to waste my time on obviously biased cites, since they’re useless for actually proving anything objectively. I did look at it briefly, and it appeared to be a listing of quotations (without any real reason to believe any of them were accurate) thrown together with the intention of riling up people on one side of the debate or another. You see an evil conspiracy; I see a set of political opinions, some of which (at a brief glance) sound reasonable enough to me, and all of which have their own place in the marketplace of ideas just like all the other political opinions out there. > [@curlcoat](#): > > So, your claim to not have pets meant just right now. Cute. Do you not wish to ever have a pet again then? I guess you might find that cute, though I don’t understand why. Your question was, “Do you have pets?”. I interpreted that question literally. I’m not sure whether or not I intend to ever have a pet again. I miss my cats and I certainly _wish_ to have more cats. But I’m not sure where I stand on that, morally, and I’d have to read more about the indoor/outdoor question and the claws/no claws question before I made that decision. > [@curlcoat](#): > > And of course, what you want is all that is important, right? All those nasty meat eaters can just learn to go without. You’re putting words in my mouth. I never advocated a ban on animal breeding. I just said that the process seems distasteful to me. But am I going to do anything about it any time soon? No. I like chicken too much. Ironic? No, I’m just a hypocrite. I’m OK with that; I consider myself faithful enough to most of my moral philosophy that I can let myself slide on that one. > [@curlcoat](#): > > OK, assuming that you aren’t just watching “The Real Housewives of Orange County” here, even so you are completely wrong about the laws concerning service animals, even in Orange County, even in Irvine much to their dismay. I’ve never seen that show. I detest reality television. You can choose to disbelieve me, but I know what I’ve seen. One of these people explained to me in a hotel in Garden Grove (or whatever that town next to Anaheim is) that she got her tiny little whateverthefuck dog certified as a “service animal” because it was her “therapy”, and indicated to me that it was all very frivolous, and just a way for her to take her dog everywhere without catching shit for it. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Those who take a service animal into a business are subject to far more restrictions than those who take a baby in and change it’s diaper on a table within. I think what you mean to say is that there are laws on the books which support business owners’ rights to be far more restrictive on service animals than babies. In general, I doubt most business owners would see fit to interrogate people who appear to have service animals. I found out when I worked retail back in the day that more businesses allow animals (service or not) than you’d think, though. Borders, for example. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Your bias against service animals My problem is with the way the law can be exploited, not the animals themselves, who I’m sure are the nicest dogs around. They’d pretty much have to be, right? > [@curlcoat](#): > > and apparently dogs in general I’m more of a cat person, yeah. > [@curlcoat](#): > > You are far from an expert on dog training. If nothing else, one cannot subject anything to constant discipline if one wants that animal/person/child to remain sane. I feel I’ve used misleading language again. By “constant discipline”, I mean that the animal can never ever eat a soda can or shit on the floor and get away with it. Of course, I wouldn’t argue that people shouldn’t be allowed to train their dogs to have decent manners. Far from it! The only dogs I can stand are very well-trained ones. I just think it’s an interesting thing to ponder from the dog’s perspective. I don’t know enough about dog consciousness to say whether they feel like prisoners, of course. My perception of well-trained dogs is that they seem to be happy with their living situation. > [@curlcoat](#): > > There is no desire for human-like behaviors - trainers with an ounce of brains and experience do not consider their dogs “furchildren”. I didn’t say that the dogs are supposed to recreate human behaviors, I said that their behaviors are supposed to become _more_ human-like–i.e., eat, drink, and poop in what humans consider the right places, greet humans in ways that humans are comfortable with (i.e., not so much of the butthole sniffing), etc. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Dogs have to “be dogs” - that is what they are. That is true. I have probably overstated my case. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Where do you get these ideas? What are those sharp weapons on the bottom of jockeys’ boots for, if not to stab the animals? What are the whips for, if not to beat the animals into doing what the jockey/racer/whatever wants them to do? > [@curlcoat](#): > > Whiner. There’s a reason for the rule. You’ll notice that I never deliberately misquote you, and that’s because I have some modicum of respect for our medium of argumentation, even if we don’t always agree. > [@curlcoat](#): > > I’m pretty close to not wasting time on typing, much less the cost of a whole stamp. You obviously have no clue about the subject and are willing to swallow whole everything that PETA tells you. Which would be immaterial if you didn’t vote. I can’t say I’ve gone to the PETA website more than once or twice in my life, or read a piece of PETA propaganda in years. I do come into contact with the theories of veganism and such quite a bit, and I obviously agree with a lot of it. But I’m not active in the animal rights community and I wouldn’t call myself a “PETA supporter” any more than I’d call myself, say, a “Peace & Freedom Party supporter”–that is, peace & freedom sound like pretty good ideas to me, but that doesn’t mean i’m head over heels for the organization. Same goes for the ethical treatment of animals, in general. I’ve already volunteered several times in this thread that I have serious moral issues with the way PETA does its job; I’m not sure how you can equate that to “swallow[ing] whole everything that PETA tells you” with a straight face. Then again, it is a text-based medium; you could be smirking or giggling a little. I wouldn’t know. Hostile Dialect, Hostile Dialect, Narcissist ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/239 "2009-01-28T13:58:49Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > To be fair, worker fish have a right to unionize. > Thanks for the acknowledgement. > Just out of curiosity: which part do you disagree with? That the firebombing of Dresden was an atrocity or that it was considered militarily necessary at the time? It was no more an atrocity than the firebombing of Tokyo, and no more an atrocity than dropping a nuke. (Which doesn’t make it less than an atrocity, just on the same level.) And, if we are ever in a war on the same _scale_ as WWII again, we will undoubtedly do similar things, I believe. Lessons from the most recent war suggest that, at the time, we will probably approve of doing so, as well. But I was mostly disagreeing with the relative significance of Stonewall. But I’m relatively local to the events, so they may have greater apparent significance to me, compared to the other. It’s like asking if the March on Selma was more important than Rosa Parks sitting on the bus. One said that a people were no longer going to take shit, and the other confirmed it. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945/240 "2009-01-28T14:07:20Z")
> [@Hostile\_Dialect](#): > > it took the total destruction of Dresden and Hiroshima to end the most horrible war in our collective memory. > > No, people with bizarre paranoid delusions, especially those in denial, are loonies. Actually, hm. What you say here has little to no bearing on what you offered as an explanation. Dresden had _nothing_ to do with ending _any_ war. You don’t know much about animals, either, apparently. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-ol-fuck-you-to-the-peta-jackass-at-the-circus/482945.md?page=13)