A big 'ol "Fuck YOU!" to the PETA jackass at the circus

This is complete and utter nonsense. And it undermines whatever credibility your other statements might have had.

Surely there is a continuum from “no interference with the animal” all the way to “constant and damaging physical abuse”. PETA purports to advocate the former. No one defends the later. There is a large but excluded middle.

Does abuse occur? Surely it does; there are nasty people in the world. Is it common practice in circuses, dog training, and/or horseback riding (just to use examples already noted)? Hardly. Why? Because it is counter productive. Animals cannot be punished into performing behaviors. Punishment only produces avoidance reactions. Abusive treatment cannot produce a performing animal, whether that be a circus elephant, a field trial retriever or an Olympic dressage competitor. Regardless of the propensities of the human perpetrator, abuse simply does not work as a training technique.

Might someone simply get mad and beat their horse, their dog, or even their elephant? Assuredly yes. Would such a person last long as a dog trainer, a horseback rider, or a mahout? Hardly. Animals remember frightening and painful experiences very well. Anticipating additional unpleasantness, they become shy, furtive, uncooperative, even dangerous.

Not that systematic abusive treatment of dogs (e.g., Vick) has exactly this result. The dogs are not “trained”. Rather they are simply deranged and pathetic passive - aggressive creatures that can only “perform” one job-- psychotic fighting.

It is hardly reasonable to identify an extreme instance, something from the fringe of the bell curve, and use it to paint all and sundry. Still, this is a common and often effective political tool. One that PETA frequently uses, to its advantage.

Damn! Missed the edit window!

“Not that systematic abusive…” should read “Note that…”

For talking to your child? You’ve got to be kidding! Bwahahahahha!!!

No it’s not. You’re overreacting.

I would argue that the taking/destroying of any enemy city has a lot to do with ending the war in question, in the long run.

I’m not sure I understand what the spurs and whips are for, then.

Hostile Dialect,
Hostile Dialect, Narcissist

Let’s keep this on-topic and not discuss my sex life. Please.

i LOLd.

Hostile Dialect,
Hostile Dialect, Narcissist

I don’t really have a dog, or horse, in this fight, but I know that horses are much more thick skinned than humans. Things like whips or spurs that would be terrible painful for us don’t really register for them. Though you can hit a horse hard enough to be abusive, obviously, I don’t think most jockeys are doing that.

Since anything I post you consider loony and biased simply because it doesn’t agree with your preconcieved ideas, I won’t bother - find it yourself.

Ah. OK, we’ll just point them at your house and tell them that you are using rape cages and boiling chickens alive. What do you think your opinion would be after they burned your house down? Don’t you think you might view it as a bit atrocious?

The information is out there.

The Judeo-Christian religions have folks approaching children with pamphlets?

So, you think it is reasonable that a multi-million dollar organization is trying to outlaw the owning of pets and the breeding of pets and livestock? As for obviously biased site, I said that this was only a starting place - every one of those quotes had cites which you could have easily looked up if your mind wasn’t rusted shut.

I’m not going to play this game with you any more as I have better things to do than go back and show you where you are twisting things around.

And from this one woman, (in Garden Grove? what happened to “rich”?) you decide that every dog claimed as a service dog (which actually, she didn’t do since there is a huge difference between a service dog and a therapy dog) must be a cheat? And it will crap on the floor?

No, what I said was that everyone, including businesses, is allowed to restrict pets due to the odd notion that dog in shop must equal crap on the floor. Yet even at PetCo, where dogs are encouraged, there is far less mess than what is created by children in the average grocery store. No matter what businesses actually do in practice, the fact remains that they do have a legal ability to bar a service dog but essentially none to bar unruly children or women who think diapers should be changed on tables at McDonalds.

Why do you care if the law is exploited? How does it impact you in any way?

This sounds like serious back pedaling.

And you think dogs care?

Jockeys don’t wear spurs. The whips are to excite the horse into running faster, to become more competitive. You cannot “beat” a horse into winning a race, particularly not a horse as they tend to be very reactive to anything painful. If the race horses were hurt by the whips they’d freak out, not run, but since horses have thicker skins than humans and are generally whipped on the huge butt muscles, and it’s done during times of high adrenaline, some times the horses don’t even feel it. You just cannot go about giving human feelings and reactions to animals, they aren’t the same.

Because you keep quoting them.

So…what’s the point?

No, I consider your paranoid delusions loony, and I consider your cites biased because, well, they are. You should take a critical thinking class sometime and learn how to analyze cites for bias.

Atrocious arson or absurd example? Such a tough decision.

Maybe, maybe not, but there’s plenty of indoctrination of children wherever their parents go to church.

Yeah, I’m going to spend hours and hours verifying your claim, because I have just nothing better to do with your life. Whatever, man.

Fine by me.

The hotel was in Garden Grove.

No, you’re putting words in my mouth again. I’ve read up on the phenomenon, but since we’re just telling each other to do our own research, I’ll go ahead and take that option here.

Well, I’m not a fan of unruly children or their feces, so I’d support legislation aimed at giving stores more power over them. It’s interesting that only women change diapers in your world, though.

It doesn’t and I don’t. Why do you care if circuses are outlawed?

Ah. That sounds much more pleasant.

Cripes, you really don’t know anything at all about actual live animals, do you?

As explained by several of us above, animals cannot be coerced to perform human-desired actions by abuse. Spurs and whips are communication tools, not instruments of torture. Can they be abused? Certainly. Deliberate misuse can, and probably does, sometimes occur. This is the case for virtually every object in the world, but not a justification for banning the proper application of that object. I’ll note that, in the wrong hands, a violin can inflict agony on a captive audience. But this isn’t used to justify banning childrens’ recitals.

My wife and her horses “do” dressage. Without belaboring the details, suffice it to say that subtle cues are given by the rider, requesting the horse to perform a variety of actions. Watch this link to get an idea. (No, that isn’t our horse. Wish it was!) Note that the rider wears spurs and carries a whip.

The actions the horse takes are complex, but the cues from the rider are subtle. For example but by no means a comprehensive list, weight in the rider’s “seat” can be left, right, centered, forward, or back. Each may cue the horse to modify his action. Meanwhile the rider’s thigh muscles communicate something to the horse, as do the rider’s calf muscles. The rider’s foot may be at the girth, in front of the girth, or behind the girth. In any of those positions the rider may touch or press the horse with her toe, with her instep, or with her heel. The spur is used to clarify this particular cue, since it can be hard for the horse to differentiate between pressure from the instep or the heel.

The whip can be used to tell the horse “I want impulsion from your big butt muscles now… and now… and now…”. A smart response (meaning swift and immediate) is required to keep cadence, so a generalized pressure is not adequate communication. The rider swats the horse with the whip, but would be horrified at the idea of actually causing pain, let alone raising a welt. To call this a “beating” is to re-define the word.

Let us not even mention the complex cues communicated by the arms and hands through that big hunk of metal, the bit. (Actually probably two bits, in the double bridle typically used for higher levels of dressage.)

Is any of this torture? Can it be construed as cruelty? Well, my word is my cite, but our horses willingly accept the bit, perform happily, then enjoy a bath and brushing before relaxing in their stalls. It is impossible for me to interpret this as cruelty.

All of this requires almost endless repetition and practice. The horse must be an active and willing participant, not a coerced and abused conscript. Again, as in any other human endeavor, abuses may be perpetrated by certain individuals. This though is not sufficient reason to re-define “training” as “cruelty”. In this, PETA is simply and demonstratively wrong.

Because you could not be bothered to look past that site. I’m not going to spoon feed you here.

If you would bother to look into this thing, you would find out that it isn’t absurd.

Ah. Parents taking children to church is the same thing as some scruffy guy foisting gory pamphlets at a circus. Riiiight.

Obviously you have no desire to spend 10 minutes finding out that you are completely wrong. Not that I blame you, but you could just give up and go away instead of trying to pretend you know what you are talking about.

And? You are trying to say you met a real live honest to god rich white woman at a hotel in Garden Grove? Uh huh.

You have read up on masses of rich white women taking dogs into stores that are not service or therapy dogs, and these dogs go on to crap on the floor?

Orange county is a strange place. However, I didn’t say that only women change diapers - they just seem to be the only ones who cannot be bothered to properly dispose of the thing.

You don’t care and it doesn’t impact you, but you are going to “read up on it” and then use it as an example why PETA should be allowed to exist. O kay

Don’t like having their foot in my door.

You wouldn’t know, would you?

Thanks for all the new info, CannyDan. It was an interesting read.

Hang on a second. I wasn’t going to play your game anymore, but this part fascinates me. Are you really advocating that PETA should be outlawed? Feet in doors, indeed.

I must admit that I’ve never been spurred or whipped.

Hostile Dialect,
Hostile Dialect, Narcissist

Uh huh

Neither have you ever been a horse.

OK, I’ll bite. Which political organizations should be outlawed, Kommissar, and why?

That’s also true.

Hostile Dialect,
Hostile Dialect, Narcissist

Ignorance fought? Or just something to read and reject?

You can bite whatever you want, I don’t have time for your wild jumps to erroneous conclusions anymore.

Why should I feed your ego again when you’re being such a dick about it? Do you act this way whenever anyone says something nice to you?

Er…what? What exactly does “why PETA should be allowed to exist” mean to you?

I thought it was a perfectly valid question, and am surprised at the venom of your response.

Your thanks for the “new info” are accepted. I was inquiring whether or not you had thereby gained any new insights into the issues, or continued to labor under your old preconceptions.

So bite my head off. (No puns intended.)

As an aside to the whole circus argument - my husband and I have returned from the Gold Coast where we visited Sea World and saw shock horror trained dolphins and sea lions perform for the entertainment of the audience. Now with all the touchy feely about how downtrodden and beaten into submission our intelligent species animal friends are - does what I witness also fall into the category of elephants in the circus?

And if someone ever had spoken to my son at 5 years with their beliefs about a circus I had shelled out money to take him to, whether it be about the elephants, the monkeys or poodles, he/she would’ve copped a mouthful too. Let kids be kids - they work out their own belief system without it being pushed on them by dickheads like PETA (who are now infiltrating our primary schools to teach them that having pets is immoral and that fish and eggs and milk is not only bad for you, but also immoral). Won’t somebody please think of the EGGS???