# A big thread about consent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051 "2017-12-09T21:20:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/21 "2017-12-10T01:43:02Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Interesting. You can call it worse. > > I call it professional and respectful. > > It’s not my job to hug or touch women at work. > > Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk If I worked with a guy who refused to look at me, and if I passed him in the hallway he always stopped and looked down (because refusing to look at me), I would think something weird was wrong with him. I really doubt you treat men that way. I treat possibly-dangerous animals that way. They often resent being looked at and certainly resent being touched unless they initiate it. Perhaps there’s a link. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/22 "2017-12-10T01:55:26Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Ok, let’s say drunk means voluntarily intoxicated past the ability to consent. > > [ul] > [li]If one party is drunk, they can’t consent. [/li][li]If both parties are drunk they are equivalent to wild animals and not responsible for their actions. There is no question of consent.[/li][li]Lies are irrelevant. If you consent you consent. It’s not a quid pro quo, you unconditionally consent to specific acts and have no expectation for anything in return.[/li][li]Re: BDSM - If you play dangerous games you take risks. Don’t consent if you don’t want to take the risk.[/li][li]You can consent shortly prior to becoming too intoxicated to consent. You can still object while intoxicated, but you can’t decide after the fact that you would have changed their mind if you didn’t become voluntarily intoxicated.[/li][li]Your examples of power are irrelevant outside professional relationships. If you are in debt just say no. You already owe the money, saying no doesn’t increase your debt, there’s no power there. If you want to pay off your debt with sex then go ahead and try but don’t expect me to pay taxes to enforce sex contracts. Psychological weaknesses are your own problem. If a professional counselor or doctor takes advantage of what they know of your psychological state it should be a crime without regard to the issue of consent.[/li][/ul] > > These things really aren’t that difficult if you assume people should take responsibility for their own actions and their own consent. You can take back consent any time up the present, but not in the future. The drunk part and consent is tricky. I tend to believe it depends on whether there is an existing sexual relationship. If two strangers meet in a bar, and one is drunk and the other isn’t it is iffy, but still not sexual assault (it isn’t sexual assault IMO unless one party is passed out from being drunk or intoxicated). However if they are in an established relationship and they have had sex before, then issues like drunkenness are not issues. If one party is drunk or both are drunk, if it is an established relationship then its not an issue. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/23 "2017-12-10T02:08:39Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This example clearly runs afoul of most affirmative consent policies. Not that I’m aware of. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/24 "2017-12-10T02:19:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not that I’m aware of. It runs afoul of that weird caricature of the consent rules where you’re apparently supposed to hear yes before you move forward at all. It’s a good guide, I guess, for people who have no ability to read other people. As she lies there frozen in terror or disgust, “hey, she never said no so I went ahead!” It’s for people like that you need Yes means Yes. For them, it makes sense to ask, may I kiss you? Can I put my hand there? How about there? Because, they apparently have no ability to tell when someone is squirming away or too drunk to consent. The reality, of course, is that millions of people get together every day with consent without anyone actually saying Yes. Because, when you move in for the kiss and she moves in for the kiss, you’re probably fine to move forward. When she goes to touch there and you move her hand away, it’s probably a good time to step back. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/25 "2017-12-10T02:58:53Z")
I think part of the problem is we’re influenced by the way people get together in fiction. Seriously. It makes dramatic sense for a kiss to be a sudden thing. So many men can relate, at least in high school, to leaning in for a kiss and being rejected. Most of us learn that it shouldn’t happen like that; you gradually escalate physical contact from gentle tap on elbow, to kiss, getting feedback the whole time on whether she’s willing. Movies are starting to catch up too; some of the cliche romance tropes (which are actually creepy) are dying off. Sent from my Mi-4c using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/26 "2017-12-10T03:13:09Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The drunk part and consent is tricky. I tend to believe it depends on whether there is an existing sexual relationship. If two strangers meet in a bar, and one is drunk and the other isn’t it is iffy, but still not sexual assault (it isn’t sexual assault IMO unless one party is passed out from being drunk or intoxicated). > > However if they are in an established relationship and they have had sex before, then issues like drunkenness are not issues. If one party is drunk or both are drunk, if it is an established relationship then its not an issue. It will remain tricky. Part of the problem is defining the line where it is a societal function to judge the actions of drunks. I don’t have a problem with people acting like wild animals in private, I encourage it some forms, but if you’re going to get drunk with others in private don’t put a burden on me to figure out who consented to what. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/27 "2017-12-10T03:26:12Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I can’t comment on the O.P.'s remarks on dating. I’m 55. Cannot even imagine dating. > > That said, the workplace? I’ve modified my behavior at work. > > No eye contact. > Never smile at a female co-worker. > No physical contact of any kind, at any time, for any reason. > When walking down the weirdly narrow hallways behind the studio, if a woman is approaching, I stop. > Period. > > I’m there to do my job. Not look at women. Long as I hew to that behavior, nobody can accuse me of anything. > > Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk The no-physical-contact decision makes sense, but I’m guessing your job doesn’t require much personal interaction. I can’t imagine anyone who could consistently and successfully interact in person with coworkers and supervisors without any eye contact whatsoever. Furthermore, if you’re making eye contact with male coworkers and not female coworkers, you’re not necessarily avoiding trouble. If anyone, male or female, treated me and others that way at work, I’d frankly be a little creeped out. Do you ever speak to woman at work? If so, do you speak to them the same way you speak to men? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/28 "2017-12-10T05:28:44Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Oh boy, this will end well. > > Gray areas about consent. > > [ul] > [li]What if both parties enjoy BDSM games and one party misreads the body language of the other partner? [/li][/ul] That’s what safe words are for, un-graying the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/29 "2017-12-10T05:31:51Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > No. All the people who are confused about what consent means seem to be men. Sorry if that was ambiguous. Please, not the hashtag! Your original version can be read as “every man is confused”. **RitterSport** ’s correction was “all the people who are confused happen to be men”. So, since RS’s version apparently is what you meant, what is that “no” supposed to mean? ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/30 "2017-12-10T05:57:00Z")
Geez, I miss the 80’s. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/31 "2017-12-10T06:32:05Z")
Former US Supreme Court justice Potter Stewart, when faced with defining what makes something pornographic, quipped, “I know it when I see it.” I think this is a lot like that. People want a bright line definition but as you delve into it there just isn’t one. The world just doesn’t work this way and therin lies the impossible to resolve problem at hand. Any way to regiment this and get that bright line ends up being really weird and impractical. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/32 "2017-12-10T08:26:04Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > The no-physical-contact decision makes sense, but I’m guessing your job doesn’t require much personal interaction. I can’t imagine anyone who could consistently and successfully interact in person with coworkers and supervisors without any eye contact whatsoever. Furthermore, if you’re making eye contact with male coworkers and not female coworkers, you’re not necessarily avoiding trouble. If anyone, male or female, treated me and others that way at work, I’d frankly be a little creeped out. > > Do you ever speak to woman at work? If so, do you speak to them the same way you speak to men? Exactly, the best policy is to treat female co-workers like the humans they are. If you are grabbing the asses, kissing or making sex jokes with co-workers who are the same gender, and making ignoring contact with women in the workplace you have a bigger issue. Sexual harassment is sexual harassment no matter what the recipient’s gender is. Men who have been sexually assaulted have the same feelings and reactions as other do, but they typically also face some additional challenges on taking action because of societal norms. The best policy is to just avoid making of unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks to any coworker. Nelliebly is making the proper argument here, no special treatment of women is required from men, all that is required is being respectful and professional with everyone. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/33 "2017-12-10T14:48:10Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > I can’t comment on the O.P.'s remarks on dating. I’m 55. Cannot even imagine dating. > > That said, the workplace? I’ve modified my behavior at work. > > No eye contact. > Never smile at a female co-worker. > No physical contact of any kind, at any time, for any reason. > When walking down the weirdly narrow hallways behind the studio, if a woman is approaching, I stop. > Period. > > I’m there to do my job. Not look at women. Long as I hew to that behavior, nobody can accuse me of anything. > > Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk I’ll assume this is user\_name/post combo irony. The alternative is a description of behavior too dysfunctional to contemplate. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/34 "2017-12-10T14:51:34Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Your original version can be read as “every man is confused”. **RitterSport** ’s correction was “all the people who are confused happen to be men”. So, since RS’s version apparently is what you meant, what is that “no” supposed to mean? Still not clear, huh? Let me try one more time. The people who are confused about what consent is, are all men. Women do not seem to be confused. Men subset A: confused about consent. subset B: not confused about consent Women all not confused about consent Does that work? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/35 "2017-12-10T18:39:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not that I’m aware of. The first google hit for affirmative consent gives a page with this: > [@](#): > > Silence or lack of resistance, in and of itself, does not demonstrate consent. > **[Definition of Affirmative Consent - SUNY System](https://system.suny.edu/sexual-violence-prevention-workgroup/policies/affirmative-consent/)** > > Sexual Violence Prevention and Response Definition of Affirmative Consent Your plan to: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Put your arm around your date, If they don’t want it there, they’ll probably make it clear Clearly violates that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/36 "2017-12-10T19:15:46Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The first google hit for affirmative consent gives a page with this: > > [http://system.suny.edu/sexual-violence-prevention-workgroup/policies/affirmative-consent/](http://system.suny.edu/sexual-violence-prevention-workgroup/policies/affirmative-consent/) > > Your plan to: > > Clearly violates that. You might notice that your link discusses affirmative consent for sexual activity. Putting your arm around someone is not sexual activity. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/37 "2017-12-10T19:23:26Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The first google hit for affirmative consent gives a page with this: > > [http://system.suny.edu/sexual-violence-prevention-workgroup/policies/affirmative-consent/](http://system.suny.edu/sexual-violence-prevention-workgroup/policies/affirmative-consent/) > > Your plan to: > > Clearly violates that. Consent is not a question, it is a state. It my be useful to consider the other persons enthusiasm. if you put your arm around someone and they lean in, or indicate enthusiasm in another way it is OK. If they freeze, look terrified or pull away you need to verbalize your question for consent or apologize for misreading the situation. All one has to do is to only engage in physical contact with people who are clearly receptive to it at the time. Non-action and passivity are simply not indicators of being receptive and/or consent. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/38 "2017-12-10T19:49:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You might notice that your link discusses affirmative consent for sexual activity. Putting your arm around someone is not sexual activity. Unless you’re Al Franken. Sorry. Couldn’t resist. Okay, okay, don’t shove!..I’ll show myself out. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/39 "2017-12-10T20:31:01Z")
> [@treis](#): > > [http://system.suny.edu/sexual-violence-prevention-workgroup/policies/affirmative-consent/](http://system.suny.edu/sexual-violence-prevention-workgroup/policies/affirmative-consent/) That is a school policy that you have to consent to following in order for it to mean anything. They could make a policy that you need written permission before you even ask for verbal permission if they wanted to. I think it’s perverted myself, I’d advise people to find schools that have a healthy attitude about sex. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/40 "2017-12-11T04:51:21Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > The people who are confused about what consent is, are all men. Women do not seem to be confused. Women intuitively know if they’re consenting. Men may have intuitions about whether the woman is consenting, (less so if they’re young, like college age) but if a man is accused of sexual harassment or sexual assault, saying, “I intuitively knew she wanted it” won’t help his case. So with all the media attention and talk of affirmative consent, even a man who always acts in good faith wants to know the new rules, and saying that it’s just common sense doesn’t help; it’s like saying, “Just be a good person and you won’t get arrested,” or, “Just drive safely and you won’t get stopped.” You want to know the rules. This is especially true if you’re dealing with a college or a job, which may have less rigorous ideas of due process and the rights of the accused than you’d get in a criminal trial. Years ago, I worked in an office, where at first I acted all gentlemanly and disguised my true nature 🙂 , until I discovered _the women_ were going fast and furious with the sexual banter, so I figured, to hell with Puritanism, and bantered right back at them. It was clearly consentual and a fun job. I wouldn’t do that today. Assholes and the clueless have ruined it, so now we can’t have nice things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051.md?page=3)