# A big thread about consent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051 "2017-12-09T21:20:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/61 "2017-12-11T16:17:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Then a different thread about that would be most enlightening. I’ll actually be rooting for your viewpoint. I think this idea that we can’t be colorblind or genderblind so we shouldn’t even try is toxic. We can recognize that we’ll never meet our own high standards, but that doesn’t mean we should give up on the idea just because we’ll fall prey to unconscious bias sometimes. I don’t know what you are saying. When people say they are colorblind it makes no sense. I see a person with dark skin and I know how many others will see them, and ignore it because I see individuals not members of some artificial group. I’m not genderblind, I see the difference between men and women, and I see that makes no difference on the job since I don’t work at Hooters. I don’t care what your sexual orientation is, the only sex I’m concerned with is the sex I’m having and the sex certain porn starlets are having. I’m getting paid to get a job done and where I have to interact with others it’s based on their ability to contribute to getting that job done. I couldn’t care in the least what kind of identity they think they have. I don’t think this is that difficult at all for people who don’t actually harbor prejudice. If you’re a guy who thinks men are superior to women but you’ll act the like there’s no difference in the workplace then I can see where you’d have a problem. If you think the color of a person’s skin makes them different than people with your own skin color but you won’t say so in public then I can see where you’d have a problem. If you recognize that any biases you have are irrational and unfairly categorizing people then it’s pretty easy to put those things aside and treat everyone the same. At least it has worked for me, if it’s not working for anyone else then I’m sorry you have to carry that burden. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/62 "2017-12-11T16:18:20Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I liked [Anne Victoria Clark’s suggestion to men](https://medium.com/@annevictoriaclark/the-rock-test-a-hack-for-men-who-dont-want-to-be-accused-of-sexual-harassment-73c45e0b49af) for how to navigate interactions with women in workplace settings: > She goes on to give examples. They’re worth reading. 🙂 I’m not entirely sure I buy this. As one extreme, I have worked in several workplaces where male employees liked to make off-color and sexual jokes to each other. I’m certain we would not advise them to treat the female employees like the males (rather, we would prefer they start treating other men the way we want them to treat the women). But, more commonly, I could imagine touching the arm or shoulder of a male coworker to get his attention or for emphasis. I would never do that with a woman. I might comment on a male coworker’s attire, but never with a woman. I would have no problem asking a male coworker about his relationships or family, but I would never do that with a woman. (I have also experience a fair amount of “making fun” workplace humor, although I do often see it directed at female colleagues on an equal basis. It doesn’t seem to be taken as well). These aren’t really “consent” issues, but I think that I might treat the Rock at my workplace in ways that would be problematic if he were a female. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/63 "2017-12-11T16:21:18Z")
Colorblindness means treating people the same regardless of their race. I’d like to think I do that as well, but I’ve been told that it is impossible, and if I insist it’s not, then that’s just my privilege talking. Maybe, the debate has made me think about it anyway. As for men and women, I’m actually fairly militantly feminist in that I’m not treating women differently in any circumstances than I treat men and that sometimes gets me in trouble, which tells me I’m probably doing it right. Not work trouble, but just general social trouble, like “why didn’t you hold that door open?” or “Never ask a woman her age”. I ask men their age, so I’m asking women their age. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/64 "2017-12-11T16:25:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > …I ask men their age, so I’m asking women their age. What are you, the fucking Census Bureau? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/65 "2017-12-11T16:31:45Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Colorblindness means treating people the same regardless of their race. I’d like to think I do that as well, but I’ve been told that it is impossible, and if I insist it’s not, then that’s just my privilege talking. Maybe, the debate has made me think about it anyway. > > As for men and women, I’m actually fairly militantly feminist in that I’m not treating women differently in any circumstances than I treat men and that sometimes gets me in trouble, which tells me I’m probably doing it right. Not work trouble, but just general social trouble, like “why didn’t you hold that door open?” or “Never ask a woman her age”. I ask men their age, so I’m asking women their age. The solution to these problems is quite simple, stop listening to the segregationists. I don’t treat people the same regardless of ‘race’ because I know that ‘race’ is an artificial concept intended to divide people and justify inequality. Here’s a simple test to see if someone is really racist, ask them about a person they know with a skin color different than theirs. Describe that person in any way you like but don’t provide their name or their skin color. If they don’t have any idea who you are talking about until you say something like “And he’s black” then you’ll see that they really view that person as first belonging to another ‘race’ before all other things. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/66 "2017-12-11T16:33:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Not work trouble, but just general social trouble, like “why didn’t you hold that door open?” or “Never ask a woman her age”. I ask men their age, so I’m asking women their age. Have you tried holding doors open for all people regardless of gender? Have you tried not asking irrelevant questions, like “How old are you?”, in the workplace? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/67 "2017-12-11T16:36:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Seriously though, the whole point is that we don’t actually treat people the same in practice. When a man walks by you carrying a heavy box of printer paper, is your reaction exactly the same as when it’s a woman doing it? When you and a female co-worker get lunch, do you pay for only your own meal? Are you more careful of what you say in mixed company than just around other guys? Perhaps YOU don’t treat people the same. If I saw a man or woman with a heavy box of printer paper, if they are appearing to struggle with it, I offer my help. I’m not carrying a big box of printer paper simply because it’s a woman! I pay for my own lunch when I go to lunch during the work day. I assume others pay for their own. Why would I pay for a female co-workers lunch? It’s not a date, is it? I say the same things in the office, whether or not there are men or women around. It’s easy when you don’t make crude, or sexual jokes in the workplace. Really, these things aren’t hard. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/68 "2017-12-11T17:31:51Z")
Why is this thread not in the Pit already? There are many “socially awkward” people in the world who don’t read the cues very skilfully, who aren’t jerks. Oh wait a minute. Such people are now jerks _by definition_, aren’t they. Just ask **RitterSport** , that’s what he seems to think. > [@RitterSport](#): > > This thread won’t resolve anything. For most non-jerks, this isn’t really an issue. It’s clear when to move forward and clear when to stop and back off. If you’re really unclear, you’d better err on the side of caution. He’s not alone. This society, and even this very allegedly progressive Board, are full of people who make no distinction between the merely socially awkward (all males, of course, right?) and outright rapists, and rains contempt and hatred upon them all alike. Like this: > [@Ulfreida](#): > > Yeah, really. “I refuse to understand how to treat women as equals. Instead I will try to punish them a different way while sulking in self-pity.” > > All these men – and it really is all men – saying I AM SO CONFUSED AND AFRAID NOW. > > Just friggin be polite, how hard can that be? Already polite? You are good to go. Don’t know whether you’re polite or not? Very simple: would you want a man doing to you what you are doing to her? If the answer is no, just stop doing it! Ta da! Fixed it for ya. > > Yet the whining and cowering continues. **RitterSport** is absolutely correct, though, that this thread won’t solve, let alone re-solve, anything. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > If I worked with a guy who refused to look at me, and if I passed him in the hallway he always stopped and looked down (because refusing to look at me), I would think something weird was wrong with him. I really doubt you treat men that way. > > I treat possibly-dangerous animals that way. They often resent being looked at and certainly resent being touched unless they initiate it. Perhaps there’s a link. On this very board, we’ve had TWO females now who have written that they consider it _rape_ (their word, not mine) if a male so much as _tries to shake hands with them_. Since they haven’t posted in this thread, I won’t name them. So what is **Cartooniverse** supposed to do when there are females in the workplace (not in itself a problem) who are like _that_ ? Now _that’s a problem_. You’ve made him damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. Just who are the dangerous wild animals here? Oh wait. So males who feel it’s safest to simply avoid interacting with females are _dangerous animals_ now? Geez, how much more dangerous do you think they’d be if they _did_ interact with females? Didn’t we have someone in one of these recent threads who got accused of… _something_ … because he jostled someone while carrying something up a narrow staircase? That wasn’t a male accusing a male. That was a female who needed to be treated _differently_. What should he have done? Backed down the staircase like a driver who encounters an opposing vehicle while driving up a narrow mountain road? Enough awful examples, from this thread alone. So much contempt and hatred. Upon review: I see there’s a lot more in this thread now than when I started writing this, and it’s just getting worse and worse. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > What are you, the fucking Census Bureau? I was right. This thread belongs in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/69 "2017-12-11T17:39:32Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > The people who are confused about what consent is, are all men. Women do not seem to be confused. > > Men > subset A: confused about consent. > subset B: not confused about consent > > Women > all not confused about consent There’s no real way to judge if this is correct just based on the fact that the ones expressing confusion about consent are invariably men. Consent is only an issue for men. Men are expected - by both men and women - to be the primary initiators. And even if women do initiate without consent, the likelihood of them facing any consequence is minuscule. As a result, the consent under discussion is going to invariably be the woman’s. Generally, any person will have more confusion about someone else’s consent than about their own. But in some theoretical world where women had to assess men’s consent as frequently as men have to assess women’s, it’s quite possible that they would express just as much confusion, or perhaps more. (Not sure how things work in lesbian circles.) ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/70 "2017-12-11T17:45:13Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I’m not entirely sure I buy this. As one extreme, I have worked in several workplaces where male employees liked to make off-color and sexual jokes to each other. I’m certain we would not advise them to treat the female employees like the males (rather, we would prefer they start treating other men the way we want them to treat the women). > > But, more commonly, I could imagine touching the arm or shoulder of a male coworker to get his attention or for emphasis. I would never do that with a woman. I might comment on a male coworker’s attire, but never with a woman. I would have no problem asking a male coworker about his relationships or family, but I would never do that with a woman. (I have also experience a fair amount of “making fun” workplace humor, although I do often see it directed at female colleagues on an equal basis. It doesn’t seem to be taken as well). These aren’t really “consent” issues, but I think that I might treat the Rock at my workplace in ways that would be problematic if he were a female. I’ve got bad news for you. You’re not supposed to make off-color or sexual jokes in the workplace regardless of who you’re with. That’s all part of a hostile work environment. Other men may be offended anyway (out of principle, religious differences, whatever), and creating an environment where women are treated that differently is pretty hostile anyway. And, the subjects you avoid with women that you don’t avoid with men are bizarre – it’s fine to ask a woman how it’s going, I heard you moved in with your boyfriend, is it going OK?, nice outfit, are you meeting a client today. By treating women differently than men, you could still get in trouble, or at least you should. I’ve said this before, but women are not some alien species looking to trap you and get you fired. I’m sure I treat men and women differently here (I’ll offer to carry something for a woman that I wouldn’t for a man, let women enter the elevator first, etc.), but if there are topics that I would avoid when talking to a woman, I should avoid them when talking to men as well. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/71 "2017-12-11T18:03:40Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > What are you, the fucking Census Bureau? That’s pretty funny actually. People get asked their age in various circumstances. No, not in the workplace. “How old are you?” is a null question to most men. It’s a very loaded question to most women. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/72 "2017-12-11T18:10:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s pretty funny actually. > > People get asked their age in various circumstances. No, not in the workplace. “How old are you?” is a null question to most men. It’s a very loaded question to most women. I myself dislike that question. I’ve never been asked it in the workplace, but I’ve been frequently asked in work-social situations about the age-range of my kids, which is kind of a proxy for that same info (especially since I got married and had my first kids at a relatively young age). Of late, I’ve taken to shaving a few years off my oldest daughter’s age. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/73 "2017-12-11T18:52:23Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > No. All the people who are confused about what consent means seem to be men. Sorry if that was ambiguous. Please, not the hashtag! In general, it’s true, but #notallcluelesspeople. I remember in college a woman who was pretty universally loathed in our social group. She claimed to be an empath, and on one memorable outing, she kept touching this dude in our group (Yoyo Phil was his name). He kept saying, “Stop touching me!” Like those exact words, not anything subtle or indirect. She giggled and said, “I’m an empath, I can tell you’re enjoying it,” and continued. Later, of course, she hit on me, in a pretty unsubtle way (asked me to walk her back to her dorm room, where took off her pants, climbed into bed, and invited me to join her), but when I played dumb, she didn’t escalate, so maybe she’d learned her lesson. Anyway, like I said, #notallcluelesspeople :). ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/74 "2017-12-11T19:00:12Z")
Oh, women can be very confused about consent. Men are just less likely to consider it threatening. Has anyone here ever refused a woman’s advances and had her say you were obviously gay? Ever had a woman in a relationship with you where she was doing something to you, you didn’t like it, told her to stop, and she wouldn’t stop until you physically stopped her? At which point you’re the bad guy? And we’re not even getting into what people do when they are intoxicated. Had to be locked in this hug with a drunk woman’s hands on my ass at a bowling alley for like a minute. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/75 "2017-12-11T20:54:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In general, it’s true, but #notallcluelesspeople. I remember in college a woman who was pretty universally loathed in our social group. She claimed to be an empath, and on one memorable outing, she kept touching this dude in our group (Yoyo Phil was his name). He kept saying, “Stop touching me!” Like those exact words, not anything subtle or indirect. She giggled and said, “I’m an empath, I can tell you’re enjoying it,” and continued. > > Later, of course, she hit on me, in a pretty unsubtle way (asked me to walk her back to her dorm room, where took off her pants, climbed into bed, and invited me to join her), but when I played dumb, she didn’t escalate, so maybe she’d learned her lesson. > > Anyway, like I said, #notallcluelesspeople :). So you knew these things about her and yet you still went up to her dorm room with her. #why? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/76 "2017-12-11T21:00:05Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Oh, women can be very confused about consent. Men are just less likely to consider it threatening. Has anyone here ever refused a woman’s advances and had her say you were obviously gay? Ever had a woman in a relationship with you where she was doing something to you, you didn’t like it, told her to stop, and she wouldn’t stop until you physically stopped her? At which point you’re the bad guy? No-one should put up with that sort of thing. I hope you had the sense not to. > [@adaher](#): > > And we’re not even getting into what people do when they are intoxicated. Had to be locked in this hug with a drunk woman’s hands on my ass at a bowling alley for like a minute. Had to? Did you lose a bet? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/77 "2017-12-11T22:37:58Z")
No, she asked me for a hug. Then wouldn’t let go and her hands started to wander. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/78 "2017-12-11T22:40:21Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So you knew these things about her and yet you still went up to her dorm room with her. #why? Dude, I was like nineteen, and had been celibate for two years. Don’t judge me. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/79 "2017-12-11T22:50:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Dude, I was like nineteen, and had been celibate for two years. Don’t judge me. I knew there had to be extenuating circumstances. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051/80 "2017-12-11T22:57:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > All of this would be pretty easy to navigate if it didn’t involve official sanctions from your workplace or the government or if your career is public. Just TALK to each other and explain yourselves. We have language and vocal chords for this purpose, but sometimes I think we’re just apes jabbering at each other for all the good it does sometimes. I’m not sure I would say this is true. You’re talking just about mistakes from genuine ignorance here, but even when there’s no malice involved that doesn’t necessarily mean that someone’s open to being talked away from that position of ignorance. Sometimes ignorance isn’t merely a matter of missing out on some important information which can be provided, but the result of a total lack of comprehension of ability to empathise with someone else’ situation. And beyond that, they simply may not care enough to change. Sometimes official sanctions are an appropriate response to poor or inconsiderate behaviour, even if it’s not rooted in purposeful prickishness. I don’t think getting rid of them as an option would make these kind of things “pretty easy to navigate”, unfortunately. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-big-thread-about-consent/804051.md?page=5)