# A-BomB: What was the decisive factor that allowed the Soviet Union to beat out Germany and Japan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 27, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790 "2016-05-27T04:15:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790/41 "2016-05-28T00:03:54Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Sorry. The Soviets had a similar program, though, which gets nicknamed Soviet Alsos. The Rooskies knew about _our_ secret program, and had the gall to name their secret program of kidnapping German scientests _after ours_? Godless commies! ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790/42 "2016-05-28T00:07:25Z")
Thanks bonzer for reframing the question and laying out the information as you did. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790/43 "2016-05-28T01:10:24Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Sorry. The Soviets had a similar program, though, which gets nicknamed Soviet Alsos. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > The Rooskies knew about _our_ secret program, and had the gall to name their secret program of kidnapping German scientests _after ours_? > Godless commies! Alsos was actually a pun. It’s the Greek word for Grove. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790/44 "2016-05-28T01:27:44Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Before Hiroshima and Nagasaki (well, Trinity), it wasn’t known for certain if the bomb would work. Trinity was a test for the second A-bomb “Fat Man” dropped on Nagasaki. The first A-bomb “Little Boy” dropped on Hiroshima was never tested. The design was so simple that the scientists were confident that it would work the first time out. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790/45 "2016-05-28T03:24:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **bonzer** : > > The Russians have established a centralised laboratory and have a team working on lab-scale experiments. They know – courtesy of spying – that graphite’s the easiest choice for the moderator Isn’t just plain ordinary water (not even deuterated) a better moderator than graphite? I mean, I know that the Soviets used graphite, but it’s never been clear to me why. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790/46 "2016-05-28T03:31:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Isn’t just plain ordinary water (not even deuterated) a better moderator than graphite? I mean, I know that the Soviets used graphite, but it’s never been clear to me why. I think it’s neutron-capture cross-section is too large - .332 barns vs 5.2 x 10^-4 barns for D2O. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790/47 "2016-05-28T03:49:23Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > He wrote one of my textbooks in Graduate school. Are you sure? I admit that this isn’t Schrodinger and his Confuse a Cat enterprise, but still… ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790/48 "2016-05-28T04:41:01Z")
Kinda amazing … Otto Hahn first demonstrated nuclear fission in late 1938 … less than seven years later we were vaporizing cities … ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790/49 "2016-05-28T05:12:31Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > The sensible way to reframe the original question is to compare the three countries’ progress up to, say, the middle of 1944. At this point the Allies haven’t occupied any of the major German research centres and the main waves of bombing the Japanese mainland haven’t started. Debatable. The big raid on Tokyo that opened the serial destruction of Japan’s cities occurred tge night of March 9/10, 1944. Most sources say that raid (Operation Meetinghouse) killed more people than either atomic bomb. I’d say that counts as the main wave starting. > **[Bombing of Tokyo](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo)** > > Second Sino-Japanese War > The bombing of Tokyo (東京空襲, Tōkyō kūshū) was a series of air raids on Japan launched by the United States Army Air Forces during the Pacific War in 1944–1945. > The raids that were conducted by the U.S. military on the night of 9–10 March 1945, codenamed Operation Meetinghouse, are the single most destructive bombing raid in human history. 16 square miles (41 km2; 10,000 acres) of central Tokyo was destroyed, leaving an estimated 100,000 civilians dead and over one mill... ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790/50 "2016-05-28T06:47:42Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Debatable. The big raid on Tokyo that opened the serial destruction of Japan’s cities occurred tge night of March 9/10, 1944. Most sources say that raid (Operation Meetinghouse) killed more people than either atomic bomb. I’d say that counts as the main wave starting. > > [Bombing of Tokyo - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo) _Cough_ March, 1945. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790/51 "2016-05-28T06:53:10Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > Trinity was a test for the second A-bomb “Fat Man” dropped on Nagasaki. The first A-bomb “Little Boy” dropped on Hiroshima was never tested. The design was so simple that the scientists were confident that it would work the first time out. The point was that until the actual explosions, the full implications were not 100% known. This can be seen in the actions of both Truman and Stalin, and even the reactions of the Japanese government. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790/52 "2016-05-28T18:53:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Because it was a rush job. The United States didn’t develop prototypes, test them out to see which worked and which worked best, and then build up a full program based on the best prototypes. In order to speed up the process, they would instead build the full facility and discover how well it worked by using it. In many cases they build different facilities that duplicated the same processes because they didn’t know which method would work best. Although, to be fair - whatever they ended up with, there was no doubt it involved large quantities of the more active 238 isotope. So… they started with building the necessary infrastructure to pump that out in volume. Apparently, one of the biggest secrets of the last month of the war was not that they had the bomb, but once those three had gone off, there was a month or two wait for the next one, due to the uranium isotope shortage. They wanted the Japanese to think there would be one or two bombings a week until they surrendered. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790/53 "2016-05-28T19:13:36Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Although, to be fair - whatever they ended up with, there was no doubt it involved large quantities of the more active 238 isotope. So… they started with building the necessary infrastructure to pump that out in volume. > > Apparently, one of the biggest secrets of the last month of the war was not that they had the bomb, but once those three had gone off, there was a month or two wait for the next one, due to the uranium isotope shortage. They wanted the Japanese to think there would be one or two bombings a week until they surrendered. The concept is right, but the details are wrong. U238 is useless for an A-bomb (although very useful for a “boosted fission” weapon). U-235 is what you need, and that is the rub - it’s hard and slow to separate. So, you can make PU-239 from U-238 in a reactor. That’s a simpler process, once you get the engineering worked out, but until all your reactors are running at full capacity, it still might take some time to get enough Plutonium for a bomb. That’s where the US was after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790/54 "2016-05-28T22:32:04Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Apparently, one of the biggest secrets of the last month of the war was not that they had the bomb, but once those three had gone off, there was a month or two wait for the next one, due to the uranium isotope shortage. They wanted the Japanese to think there would be one or two bombings a week until they surrendered. This is a myth. As I’ve pointed out on the Dope on multiple occasions over the years, the US authorities did really think that the rate they were going to be delivering nuclear weapons was about roughly one a week, rather than one every month or two. And these would be primarily plutonium weapons, rather than uranium ones. The internal estimate for the next bombing, for which the components were being readied, was eight to nine days after Nagasaki. Subject to the weather. See [this recentish](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=19068830#post19068830) post by me for the details. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2016, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790/55 "2016-05-29T01:18:09Z")
I think there was a third one in the basement of the Pentagon. Just In Case. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790/56 "2016-06-03T22:42:49Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > _Cough_ March, 1945. Oh, sure, in _this_ universe. But in an alternate one… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bomb-what-was-the-decisive-factor-that-allowed-the-soviet-union-to-beat-out-germany-and-japan/755790.md?page=2)