A-BomB: What was the decisive factor that allowed the Soviet Union to beat out Germany and Japan?

I would point to two things -

As mentioned, the Nazis were leery of “Jewish science” so there was an element of politics in the physics field - plus so many really good scientists were Jewish and managed to leave the country - for America - before the war.

Meanwhile, the Soviets had the advantage through espionage, of a ring-side seat to much of the development - not just theoretical physics, but practical aspects like how to construct a working bomb, and the issues of detonation of the triggers, etc. Plus the added incentive that it was demonstrated to work to expectations and was a weapon with power beyond anything else every seen.

It’s less of a problem to build something when it’s been demonstrated to work - it avoids many years of dead ends and speculative calculations. Richard Feynman, for example, relates doing modelling of nuclear reactions using card-based calculations to determine necessary and optimum configurations of a bomb… and nobody was sure if it was “back to the drawing board” until after the first test.

davidmich, what’s your purpose in this thread? You ask a question for which the answer is trivially obvious, then you reject the trivially obvious answer everyone gives you, and then you tell them what you think the real answer is: If you already knew the “real answer”, then why did you ask?

I tend to think that the espionage was probably the biggest part. The US and the British expected the Soviets to develop fission bombs by about 1953-1954, but they did it several years early with the help of the spies.

Once they had that, they weren’t far behind at all, and even independently developed the Teller-Uram fusion bomb configuration (Sakharov’s “Third Idea”).

Heisenberg had little material to work with. He had to fight with the Luftwaffe, which wanted radium for glow in the dark aircraft instruments.
Indeed, he was quite surprised when the Americans used atomic weapons. He did not initially believe them.

There’s a long list -which is why nuclear proliferation limits are so important. As we saw with India and Pakistan, once one side of an intense rivalry develops the bomb, the other side is highly motivated too. I wonder how much of India’s motivation came from China’s development?

I suppose part of the saving grace of apartheid South Africa was that even if they had the bomb, there were not that many bomb-able targets in the surrounding countries… But it might have motivated Nigeria who have had the oil money to finance such a move. Similarly, Iran’s progress has stirred rumblings from Sunni Saudi Arabia (who can presumably buy whatever expertise is needed) or maybe Egypt.

Without the US umbrella, Japan would be motivated to develop a bomb protect itself against North Korea (as would South Korea) but presumably Japan would face a fierce internal debate. Taiwan also relies on US guarantees to avoid needing nuclear weapons.

The NATO umbrella has made it unnecessary for European powers like Germany or Turkey to need to develop a bomb, but presumably they are advanced enough that they could do so quickly. (Canada and Australia, too) Similarly, the Argentina junta had been rumored to be developing a bomb, which would have motivate Brazil and Chile as well.

So there are plenty of countries that could be motivated to develop atomic bombs, but have instead relied on either guarantees from allies or mutually assured restraint. The fear is that the proliferation would mean that rogue nations - the Saddams and Ayatollahs, the Assads and Gaddafi’s, would be able to obtain the technology cheap from nuclear nations with no interest in the other side of the globe, much as North Korea seems to have; leading to it being a standard weapon in every small to medium country’s arsenal, and eventually to use - either by military or stolen by terrorists.

The biggest hurdle to making an atomic bomb was finding out for sure that the concept worked, and what then were the steps needed. Russia got this from espionage, and by now the overall concepts are pretty much public knowledge. Imploding spheres, high-speed centrifuges - a lot of this is now simply a matter of engineering, no longer proof-of-concept.

So you’re saying he was uncertain?

The UK certainly had the knowledge to build the bomb early on. In fact Britain was part of the Manhattan Project. The UK had its own atomic bomb in development early in the war but when the US started in earnest to work on a bomb Britain decided to “shelve its own nuclear ambitions, and participate in the American project.” Wikipedia.

Later on of course the UK decided it needed an independent nuclear arsenal.

He didn’t believe it could be done, from his experience. I don’t know how he was convinced, perhapsy by an American scientist or engineer, or maybe he believed the newspapers.

[QUOTE=aldiboronti;19362855when the US started in earnest to work on a bomb Britain decided to “shelve its own nuclear ambitions, and participate in the American project.” [Wikipedia.]
(British contribution to the Manhattan Project - Wikipedia)

[/QUOTE]

Why did the Manhattan Project cost so much?

Building three huge factories, and employing thousands of scientists and engineers isn’t cheap.

Because it was a rush job. The United States didn’t develop prototypes, test them out to see which worked and which worked best, and then build up a full program based on the best prototypes. In order to speed up the process, they would instead build the full facility and discover how well it worked by using it. In many cases they build different facilities that duplicated the same processes because they didn’t know which method would work best.

Thanks.

If you asked NASA to send a manned mission to Mars with a launch date three years from now and a landing date no more than a year after that and **all that matters **is meeting that date, so they can hire who they want, spend what they want, shit, kill 20 astronauts doing it, but what matters is that a human being with a NASA spacesuit is waving at the camera from the surface of Mars on May 27, 2020, how much will that cost?

Well, I’ll tell you what it would cost: a hillion grillion dollars. If what matters is budget and safety, you don’t even start the project or if you do it’ll take forever. But if what matters is you MUST accomplish it very soon, NASA would be firing rockets into space like kids shoot fireworks. Why, hell, why not start building three or four ships and see which one turns out best, right? If all that matters is that it works and it works fast, damn everything else.

Regarding the UK: At the end of WWII they were really bad off, economically. It took many years to somewhat recover from the war. They certainly weren’t going to do a crash program to build their own bomb ASAP. Even with the knowledge shared from the Manhattan Project, it took them until late 1952.

The USSR, of course, also suffered greatly during WWII, but the population was not in the same position as in the UK to complain about expensive military projects. Stalin wasn’t going to be voted out of office.

France seemingly took its sweet time, not joining the club until 1960. That’s for a reasonably advanced country, well recovered from WWII and with not a lot of inside info on the Manhattan Project.

So take France’s 15 years since WWII, divide by two to make it urgent, and similar countries could maybe do it in ~7 years. Assuming that your country isn’t being bombed all the time, that resources aren’t being diverted to defend the motherland, that you have a large, educated workforce on hand, etc.

The sensible way to reframe the original question is to compare the three countries’ progress up to, say, the middle of 1944. At this point the Allies haven’t occupied any of the major German research centres and the main waves of bombing the Japanese mainland haven’t started. The Russian hinterland is no longer under any threat from the Germans.
For convenience, we’ll only consider their progress towards a reactor, since that avoids us getting bogged down in the long-running controversy - already alluded to - about how well the Germans understood the physics of a bomb.
The wider context at this point is that the US-UK-Canadian effort has had reactors running for about a year and a half, most of the vast infrastructure is in place and Los Alamos considers the uranium bomb a done deal that’s largely only waiting enough U235. They are in the midst of their plutonium design crisis and having to switch to implosion for it.

By contrast, I think it’s fair to say that at this point physicists in Germany, the USSR and Japan all thought they saw conceptually clear paths to a reactor. It was only a question of whether they could achieve that under the circumstances. All three were also exploring different methods of enrichment, but only in the lab.

[ul]The main German team were actually trying to build their reactor design, but were having difficulties sourcing both uranium and heavy water, their choice of moderator. They later were to claim they were getting fairly close to a self-critical reactor by April 1945, when the final lab is overrun, but that’s still nearly a year away at this point. (Whether they were or not is another matter, I’ve never seen a good assessment of how close the Haigerloch design was. Without having modelled it myself, my own intuition is not very.)[/ul]

[ul]The Russians have established a centralised laboratory and have a team working on lab-scale experiments. They know – courtesy of spying – that graphite’s the easiest choice for the moderator and have a good idea of the practicalities, but they don’t have access to large amounts of uranium and so aren’t yet trying to build a reactor. Stalin only gives the project the highest priority after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Victory also gives them better access to uranium and it then takes them about a year and a half to get a working reactor[/ul]

[ul]The Japanese scientists were scattered about their own universities, but their efforts faced even greater scarcity of uranium, so they could see a way to a reactor, but weren’t able to attempt to build one.[/ul]

In terms of the quality of the scientists involved, all three were using at least some Nobel-quality physicists and everybody involved was highly trained.
So I’d argue that, at least broadly, all three were not that far apart in mid-1944 and in none of them was the idea being given a particularly high priority. The biggest diffence is probably geographic: the Germans had happened to capture a fair chunk of the world’s uranium supply when they’d invaded Belgium.
Then the Soviets win the war, while the Germans and the Japanese don’t.

Story of his life. :smiley:

Bullshit.

GQ is not the forum for gottcha games, and even if it were, this is not “the answer.”

This actually should be in GD as there isn’t a nice packaged answer. However, as pointed out, all three of these countries as well as others had the capacity of developing the bomb, but the question was of resources, time, money and motivation.

Before Hiroshima and Nagasaki (well, Trinity), it wasn’t known for certain if the bomb would work.

America was the only country which could develop the bomb during the war, and undertake the other necessary war projects.

After the war, the Soviets needed to develop the bomb in order to remain competitive with the US. Germany and Japan obviously could not.

:slight_smile:

He wrote one of my textbooks in Graduate school.

I read in The German Atomic Bomb that Heisenberg and some guy tried to work on the project in a truck as they fled the front lines. That is certainly a last ditch effort.

The book also described his effort, with a graduate student (G-d bless us), to build an atomic pile as was done at the university at Chicago. Things went very wrong, and they ran out the door, and stopped, realizing that they could not run fast enough if it went critical, and stood and watched the lab burn down.

He was using paraffin as a moderator. I presume that is wax, as the Americans used the word, not kerosene, as the British do.

Sorry. The Soviets had a similar program, though, which gets nicknamed Soviet Alsos.