# A Brief Memo to Bush Supporters **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2000, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018 "2000-11-13T16:28:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2000, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/101 "2000-11-15T18:55:57Z")
scylla: Of course the market reacts to short-term uncertainty. The key, however, is short term. My blood pressure is also adversely affected in teh short-term. I see no reason why either factor should be raised as an issue in the political debate. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2000, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/102 "2000-11-15T19:08:00Z")
Because a short-term fluctuation at this particular time of market vulnerability can become a catalyst for a larger correction that can have more lasting effects, and really screw things up. Personally, I think that once we resolution and certainty the market will move just like it did when Desert Shield turned into Desert Storm, no matter who wins. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2000, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/103 "2000-11-15T19:12:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadarene \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > > It seems to me that the Gore partisans feel themselves to be on the defensive in this matter. > > It seems the same way to me. Perhaps because the Bush partisans are claiming that the election is already won, and have been doing so since Tuesday. Perhaps, further, that they have tarred Gore and his supporters as obstructionists, whiners, and crooks for doing what Bush would do in the same situation–for doing, indeed, what _anyone_ would do: try to resolve the variances surrounding a razor-thin margin which will decide the presidency of the United States. > > Bush’s insistence on finality for the sake of finality, frankly, strikes me as electioneering to a far greater degree than Gore’s desire that we be damn sure about the vote count in Florida before we anoint a winner.\*\* The Democrats are being equally harsh on the Republicans. What I’m observing is that Republican charge seems to be sticking a bit better. You are right about Bush’s efforts to portray himself as the winner. Bad move. But now that he has apparently abandoned that tack, it is possible that pressure will build on the Demos. **Dinsdale,** Your first paragraph is indeed the Republican argument. This is what they actually are saying. So all’s right with the world. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2000, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/104 "2000-11-15T19:15:12Z")
Of course, the fact that the market was moving upward before the announcement that the deadline would hold (kind of) coupled with the fact that the large drops in market value of the last few moths have not precipitated any drastic consequences argue a gloom and doom prognostication. But hey, sell if you want to. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2000, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/105 "2000-11-15T19:23:32Z")
I’m in agreement with **Spiritus, Gaudarene, Karellen** et al. The rhetoric from both camps does nothing to prove points. This election, at this point does NOT have a winner. While I might concede that one outcome is more likely than another, for either party to claim victory is premature. Neither side is guilty of “taking the high road”. And, when all the dust settles we still all need to be able to get along with each other on an individual basis. So, the comments about “whining” or “smug” or any of the rest of it, will only serve to divide us further. BOTH parties need to look at the total numbers - this was VERY close. Neither view point has a clear “mandate”. Cooperation will be vital. And toning down the rhetoric now will make cooperation easier later on. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2000, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/106 "2000-11-15T19:27:19Z")
**Izzy:** Has Bush abandoned that tack? I haven’t seen it. Do you have a cite? If you do have a cite, is it from somewhere other than Faux News? And in what way do you feel the Republicans’ charges to be sticking more? From what I know, the Republicans are charging that Gore endeavors to “have recount after recount after recount until he gets a result that he likes.” Oh, and “even Nixon stepped aside gracefully in 1960. Gore must be worse than Nixon!” The first of these charges is patently absurd to anyone with knowledge of Florida state law and/or common sense; the second is woefully historically inaccurate. Are there other, more substantive charges that I’m missing? ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2000, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/107 "2000-11-15T19:37:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dinsdale \* > **I mean, as a government lawyer I am no stranger to saying outlandish stuff with a straight face** And lawyers wonder why so many people don’t trust them or even like them. (Consider that a hijack and a subject for a future Great Debate. Now, back to the discussion at hand.) > [@](#): > > **I mean, how much can Gore bitch if he couldn’t even carry his own friggin state?!** Considering Gore’s politics, I’m not surprised that he didn’t carry Tennessee. If I ran for President, it would not surprise me I failed to carry the state where I was born, Texas, since my politics are much further left than that of most Texans. I also would not hide my atheism and that would certainly doom me. OTOH, it could be that Gore foolishly believed there was no way he could lose Tennessee and did not campaign there as much as he should have. If that was his reasoning, maybe he doesn’t deserve to be President if he’s capable of such a serious tactical error. This does not mean that Bush deserves it, though! (I voted for Nader.) ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2000, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/108 "2000-11-15T19:38:35Z")
Gadarene, I’m not sure what you mean. I am referring to the court of public opinion. In the first days Bush seemed to go about forming his transition team etc. This was fodder for critisism. I’ve not seen this going on lately, or at least not as much focus on it. In either case, the public is less likely to continue to be offended. Regarding the matter of charges sticking, it is not relevent whether you think they are justified or even (for this discussion) whether they are. If they “stick” in the mind of the public, they will hurt the case of Gore. Even if he himself is not deterred, he would be in danger of being abandoned by other Democrats, who have thier own careers to worry about. The fact that Democrats keep pointing out that if the shoe were on the other foot etc, suggests that there is a body of public opinion that believes otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2000, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/109 "2000-11-15T19:56:12Z")
**Izzy:** Agreed. Rest assured, though, that Bush’s “transition team” rhetoric has continued, albeit in slightly muted form. As far as he’s concerned–or at least as far as he’d like the public to believe–he won this election on November 7, and Gore’s been trying to steal it away since then. This is unremittingly presumptive of him, at the least, and certainly conflicts with the “trust the American people” message he’s been dispensing during the campaign. All the more reason, if Bush becomes President, that I’ll be calling him “the Player-King” all four years he’s in the White House. ---
**Author:** ![tradesilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2000, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/110 "2000-11-15T23:56:37Z")
Gaderene, just curious, what will you call Al Gore? (win or lose). ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/111 "2000-11-16T00:39:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tradesilicon \* > Gaderene, just curious, what will you call Al Gore? (win or lose). Honestly, **trade** , I dunno. Probably nothing. But then, my politics are unabashedly progressive, and I view Gore as far more competent a politician than Bush. I just wish I’d been politically active for the Reagan years–now _ **THERE’S** _ a guy for whom the “Player-King” appellation would have been spectacularly appropriate! (Which reminds me of the wonderfully satirical [book](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671673394/qid=974335138/sr=1-4/105-6579410-6611138) about the 1980s entitled _The Clothes Have No Emperor_. Heh. :)) ---
**Author:** ![tradesilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/112 "2000-11-16T16:24:00Z")
Gaderene - I think Gore makes a wonderful target, no shortage of Woody rerrferences, and the fact that this election will be questionable (no matter who takes it), ‘Al Gorleoni’ could be good for a ganster reference. By the way, throw in Lieberman, and you’ll have better material still. (Kept his Senate campaign going while running for VP - yeah, that’s good stuff.) ---
**Author:** ![SouthernStyle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@SouthernStyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SouthernStyle)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/113 "2000-11-16T16:25:50Z")
**Gadarene** , According to a recent Warren Christopher interview, VP Gore has also been actively engaging in building his transition team. This prompts me to ask two questions of you. Why is it presumptuous and/or inappropriate for Bush to establish a transition team but not Gore? (Never mind that as the sitting VP Gore’s transition would require a fraction of the effort that will Bush’s.) What would you have them do? Sit and watch CNN until the courts decide a winner? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/114 "2000-11-16T16:52:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SouthernStyle \* > **Gadarene** , > > According to a recent Warren Christopher interview, VP Gore has also been actively engaging in building his transition team. This prompts me to ask two questions of you. Why is it presumptuous and/or inappropriate for Bush to establish a transition team but not Gore? (Never mind that as the sitting VP Gore’s transition would require a fraction of the effort that will Bush’s.) What would you have them do? Sit and watch CNN until the courts decide a winner? **Style** , they can _build_ their transition teams all they want. Bush, however, is (or was) making it a part of his rhetoric, building on the fact that he had been prematurely announced as the winner _cough_JohnEllis_cough_ in order to make it look as if Gore was trying to prolong a process which had already been completed (while Bush was moving on to the next stage). I can dig up quotes, if you’d like. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/115 "2000-11-16T16:55:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SouthernStyle \* > **Why is it presumptuous and/or inappropriate for Bush to establish a transition team but not Gore** The difference is that Bush deliberately made a public show of establishing his transition team, in an effort to establish a presumption that he was the winner and pressure Gore to stop challenging the results. Had he gone about it in a more low key manner (as he is evidently doing now), he would not have received the same reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/116 "2000-11-16T18:36:22Z")
**Izzy** , we gotta stop agreeing like this. Think of our reputations. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Myron\_Finkelstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@Myron\_Finkelstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myron_Finkelstein)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/117 "2000-11-16T18:53:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadarene \*\*\* > I view Gore as far more competent a politician than Bush. \*\* If we’re talking about political competency as opposed to idealogy, I think you have to take into account the current situation. When an incumbent vice president with the best economy in history behind him and all the powers of incumbency at his disposal cannot beat an inexperienced governor who has been portrayed incessantly in the media as a bumbling moron, you gotta wonder just how good a “politician” he is. At almost every turn, including most importantly during the debates, Bush got the better of Gore in a strictly political sense. Certainly you may despise his idealogy, but you gotta admit that Bush has proven to be a pretty wily politician. ---
**Author:** ![SouthernStyle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@SouthernStyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SouthernStyle)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/118 "2000-11-16T18:57:12Z")
Ok folks, refresh my memory. I only recall one “informal” interview where Bush stated that he and Cheney were putting together their transition team. It was a straight answer to a direct question. Where did Bush accentuate or emphasize this? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/119 "2000-11-16T19:30:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Myron Finkelstein \* > When an incumbent vice president with the best economy in history behind him and all the powers of incumbency at his disposal cannot beat an inexperienced governor who has been portrayed incessantly in the media as a bumbling moron, you gotta wonder just how good a “politician” he is. There’s a post I made regarding the media on the [Pointed Questions for Bush Supporters](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=46621) thread that I suggest you take a look at. Failing that, just go to [this](http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2000/10/27/media/index.html) Salon article. Or [this](http://www.fair.org/articles/bush-lies.html) FAIR article. Also, I’d gently point out that the ability to run a campaign has little or no direct correlation with the ability to govern effectively. Your assertion that Gore is a bad politician because he has had difficulty beating Bush shows a miniscule understanding of how politics actually works. > [@](#): > > At almost every turn, including most importantly during the debates, Bush got the better of Gore in a strictly political sense. Do you have anything at all to back this up? And speaking of the debates and the media, by the way, how’s this: In the first debate, Gore claimed that he had visited Texas in the company of the head of FEMA, when in fact he and the head of FEMA had visited Texas at different times. Many in the media added this to their growing litany of Gore’s ‘lies’ and [exaggerations](http://www.consortiumnews.com/110700a.html). It was an issue for at least several days. In contrast, Bush claimed that Gore’s campaign had outspent him by a factor of 2 to 1, when in fact the opposite was true: Bush had, and has, outspent Gore by a considerable margin–there is no level on which Bush’s claim could be remotely justified. Wow, remember the media firestorm that followed _that_, um, misstatement? Neither do I. Maybe when you refer to a “strictly political sense,” you mean that Bush was able to get away with more in the debates than his opponent. If so, I agree. Otherwise, let’s pull out those debate transcripts and go over 'em, shall we? You’d be hard-pressed to find very many issues in which “Bush got the better of Gore.” > [@](#): > > Certainly you may despise his idealogy, but you gotta admit that Bush has proven to be a pretty wily politician. Wily, yes. Competent? Nope. Care to pull out his record in Texas? I will if you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Myron\_Finkelstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@Myron\_Finkelstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myron_Finkelstein)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2000, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018/120 "2000-11-16T20:34:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadarene \* \*\* > > Also, I’d gently point out that the ability to run a campaign has little or no direct correlation with the ability to govern effectively. Your assertion that Gore is a bad politician because he has had difficulty beating Bush shows a miniscule understanding of how politics actually works. \*\* Well. Please forgive my miniscule understanding, you know us conservatives have so much of our brain devoted to greed and hate that we don’t have room for much rational thought. I was under the impression (mistaken, I guess) that the art of politics involved the ability to get the most number of people to agree with your positions and your abilities and then to translate that agreement into action - by electing you in the first place and then supporting your policies to the extent that they become law. As far as your ability to campaign correlating to your success governing I would only submit one piece of evidence: Bill Clinton. The man has yet to stop campaigning - he has used it as his governing style for 8 years! Frankly, I have been saddened by this style of governance - just look at the polls then give the people what they want at that moment. No overarching principles, no attempt to “lead” the populace for the betterment of the whole. Just raw campaign politics with only “winning” as its goal. Regardless, for the purpose of this discussion, he has been extraordinarly successful. I see little evidence that this standard set by Clinton will be abandoned by either of the current contenders, unfortunately, therefore an ability to campaign effectively will by default translate into “success” in governing. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Maybe when you refer to a “strictly political sense,” you mean that Bush was able to get away with more in the debates than his opponent. If so, I agree. Otherwise, let’s pull out those debate transcripts and go over 'em, shall we? You’d be hard-pressed to find very many issues in which “Bush got the better of Gore.” \*\* I mean that Bush salvaged his campaign and then pulled even with Gore in the polls by his debate performances. I have no doubt that he is the lesser of Gore in the intelligence department, and no doubt that Gore is more “competent” on his issues (even though I disagree with many of them). However, enough of the voting public decided that Bush performed well enough to vote for him as president. That is the art of politics. BTW, using Salon articles and FAIR statements as ammunition for your arguments is pretty lame. I could cite dozens of articles from National Review or American Spectator or maybe the latest rantings from the John Birch Society to make my case, but considering the sources, they are less than reliable arbiters of accuracy of fairness. Finally: > [@](#): > > \*\* > Care to pull out his record in Texas? I will if you don’t. \*\* I’m sure Bush personally executed piles of innocent, retarded juveniles, took medicine away from old widows, used storm troopers and dogs to block minority kids from attending their decrepit schools, and it’s well known that he ate polluted babies for breakfast. And yet, despite these horrendous deeds the ignorant yokels from that slimy backwater we call Texas re-elected him Governor with darn near 70% of the vote. Yeah, he must be a bad politician. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brief-memo-to-bush-supporters/41018.md?page=7)