# A brilliant tax move by Facebook co-founder **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658 "2012-05-12T00:13:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/1 "2012-05-12T00:13:54Z")
[http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-11/facebook-co-founder-saverin-gives-up-u-s-citizenship-before-ipo.html](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-11/facebook-co-founder-saverin-gives-up-u-s-citizenship-before-ipo.html) Will save him a few hundred mil. ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/2 "2012-05-12T00:14:44Z")
Okay. So? Good for him? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/3 "2012-05-12T02:16:56Z")
I think anyone who renounces their citizenship should be banned from entering the US ever again. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/4 "2012-05-12T02:42:57Z")
People have fought and died for this country, and continue to do so. If someone worth billions would sell it out for a few extra percent return on investment, good riddance. Don’t let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/5 "2012-05-12T02:43:42Z")
Personally, I think this is a way stupid idea. The guy’s gonna get more money than any reasonable person would know what to do with. So, to save a fraction of that, he is going to give up something that you CAN’T buy back at any price. Something that someday he may very well wish he could have. Yeah, he may never need that citizenship, but then again he may someday want or need it. Though I guess if push comes to shove he could don a sombrero and sneak back across our southern bourder. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/6 "2012-05-12T04:53:29Z")
The guy is a dick. Immigrates to the US, becomes a citizen, will become a billionaire, and tries to sneak into the Singapore tax haven. The US will still go after the tax that he probably “should” pay. I’m all for the gubmit doing so. I don’t get the attitude. We have a great country that allows people to get rich. Paying their share of the current tax code is part of the deal. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/7 "2012-05-12T05:18:27Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > The guy is a dick. Immigrates to the US, becomes a citizen, will become a billionaire, and tries to sneak into the Singapore tax haven. The US will still go after the tax that he probably “should” pay. I’m all for the gubmit doing so. No it won’t. What he’s doing is completely legal. Before the IPO his stock is worth 0, officially. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/8 "2012-05-12T05:31:09Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > The guy is a dick. Immigrates to the US… _He was eleven._ ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/9 "2012-05-12T07:18:28Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Personally, I think this is a way stupid idea. The guy’s gonna get more money than any reasonable person would know what to do with. So, to save a fraction of that, he is going to give up something that you CAN’T buy back at any price. Something that someday he may very well wish he could have. Yeah, he may never need that citizenship, but then again he may someday want or need it. Though I guess if push comes to shove he could don a sombrero and sneak back across our southern bourder. What reason on earth would compel him to need or want US citizenship? With his money he can get (ie buy his way into) citizenship in practically any nation on the planet and he can easily get a visa if he wants to visit. With his existing resources there is no compelling reason for him to be US citizen with respect to any lifestyle or utility reasons. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/10 "2012-05-12T07:48:06Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > We have a great country that allows people to get rich. Paying their share of the current tax code is part of the deal. You used to. Between security harassment at airports, aging infrastructure and the US government seizing entire businesses before trial the US is not really a very business friendly place anymore.I run a small business, originally from Australia. The US is the last country I’d move to and gain citizenship and run a business in, many other countries are more entrepreneur friendly nowadays. Sorry but there’s a price to pay for the absurd security theatre farce and other shenanigans that the US has been up to and I predict a lot more billionaires will vote with their feet as nothing is changing. As others said, he didn’t have a choice in being brought to the US, if he doesn’t want to live there and doesn’t agree with the politics, why should he keep his citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![aesop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f8ce5/32.png) [@aesop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aesop)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/11 "2012-05-12T07:51:36Z")
> [@astro](#): > > What reason on earth would compel him to need or want US citizenship? Well, he just said goodbye to his US social security benefits. That extra $2000 a month would go a long way toward buying brass polish for his fleet of yachts 40 years from now. And he’ll never be able to rise above sergeant in the US Army. Who’s laughing now, Eduardo? Who’s laughing now? ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/12 "2012-05-12T08:41:18Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > The guy is a dick. Immigrates to the US, becomes a citizen, will become a billionaire, and tries to sneak into the Singapore tax haven. The US will still go after the tax that he probably “should” pay. I’m all for the gubmit doing so. > > I don’t get the attitude. We have a great country that allows people to get rich. Paying their share of the current tax code is part of the deal. He came to the US as a child and is not sneaking into Singapore. Singapore has great tax laws that attract wealthy and educated people and as a result, they have a strong economy and currency. The US compels people to leave with is overbearing tax laws. I know I would never keep all my money in the US… and I am American. ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/13 "2012-05-12T09:15:02Z")
This is nothing new. Just looking at my country, Spain, we have: -Internationally famous soprano Montserrat Caballé. -Josep Carreras, tenor (one of the “three tenors”). -Arantxa Sánchez-Vicario, tennis player. -Her brother Javier Sánchez-Vicario, another tennis player. -Sergi Bruguera, _yet another_ tennis player. -More pro golfers and bicycle racers than I care to list by name. -… And more. All of them have one thing in common: born in Spain, they are nowadays functionally from Andorra, to evade Spanish taxes. Plenty of jet-setters in Europe end up “becoming” citizens/residents of Monaco for the same reason: low to non-existent taxes. Julio Iglesias, the Spanish singer, did the same – only, instead of Andorra, he chose Panama. And let us not forget the _ **entire Spanish international soccer team** _, who arranged to have all their winnings from the Spanish victory in the 2008 European Soccer Cup stashed away in Austria, to evade Spanish taxes. So, that the co-founder of Facebook has decided to renounce his US citizenship and reside in Singapore doesn’t seem to strange to me! ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/14 "2012-05-12T12:18:06Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > …few extra percent return on investment… > [@billfish678](#): > > …to save a fraction of that… Singapore has no capital gains tax. He’s saving a lot more than a few extra percent. > [@billfish678](#): > > he is going to give up something that you CAN’T buy back at any price. Sure he can. As a billionaire with friends at Facebook he can pretty easily get permanent residence. A few years later he can apply for citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/15 "2012-05-12T12:48:17Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Sure he can. As a billionaire with friends at Facebook he can pretty easily get permanent residence. A few years later he can apply for citizenship. Not necessarily. In fact, in theory he can be [barred from returning to the U.S. ever again in any status:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renunciation_of_citizenship#United_States) “In 1996, the U.S. changed its immigration law to include a provision to “name and shame” renunciants.[17] The Department of the Treasury became obligated to publish quarterly in the Federal Register the names of those citizens who renounce their citizenship. Only the names are published, but by counting the number of names in each list, media organizations are able to infer the number of renunciants each quarter. The 1996 law included a provision to bar entry to any individual “who officially renounces United States citizenship and who is determined by the Attorney General to have renounced United States citizenship for the purpose of avoiding taxation by the United States.”[17] There is no known case of this provision, known as the Reed Amendment, having ever been enforced.” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/16 "2012-05-12T13:05:44Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Singapore has no capital gains tax. He’s saving a lot more than a few extra percent. It wasn’t ME that said percent. I said fraction. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/17 "2012-05-12T14:16:53Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > The guy is a dick. Immigrates to the US, becomes a citizen, will become a billionaire, and tries to sneak into the Singapore tax haven. The US will still go after the tax that he probably “should” pay. I’m all for the gubmit doing so. To be fair, he apparently moved to Singapore in 2010. So the move was likely not a direct effort to avoid taxes after a Facebook IPO. > [@Terr](#): > > No it won’t. What he’s doing is completely legal. Before the IPO his stock is worth 0, officially. Um, his stock, even before the IPO is worth far more than 0. You have been able to buy shares in Facebook for a while [now](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-28/facebook-said-to-halt-secondary-market-share-trading-this-week.html). Besides, did you even read the article? He is still going to have to pay taxes. > [@](#): > > **Saverin won’t escape all U.S. taxes. Americans who give up their citizenship owe what is effectively an exit tax on the capital gains from their stock holdings, even if they don’t sell the shares** , said Reuven S. Avi-Yonah, director of the international tax program at the University of Michigan’s law school. For tax purposes, the IRS treats the stock as if it has been sold. > > Renouncing your citizenship well in advance of an IPO is “a very smart idea,” from a tax standpoint, Avi-Yonah said. “Once it’s public you can’t fool around with the value.” > > Saverin’s estimated gain, and subsequent tax bill, would be based on an appraisal by his tax advisers. **They could have valued his Facebook stake at less than it will be worth once shares trade publicly, reducing his liability. For tax purposes, Saverin could say that the value of his stake should be discounted because of the potential difficulty of selling the shares while the company remains private.** So, he will still have to pay a good amount in taxes, and that amount shouldn’t be too far off from the normal tax burden since the secondary markets likely priced Facebook stock fairly close to what it will be priced at once the IPO happens. He might save a bundle in future capital gains if Facebook stock continues to appreciate. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/18 "2012-05-12T15:29:11Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Um, his stock, even before the IPO is worth far more than 0. You have been able to buy shares in Facebook for a while [now](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-28/facebook-said-to-halt-secondary-market-share-trading-this-week.html). Besides, did you even read the article? He is still going to have to pay taxes. The article is wrong on that. [http://www.hantzmonwiebel.com/live\_data/documents/ruling-59-60.pdf](http://www.hantzmonwiebel.com/live_data/documents/ruling-59-60.pdf) Read Section 8. Then consider that Facebook has a restrictive repurchase agreement setting a price of $0.01 per share. This restrictive agreement expires upon IPO. > [@](#): > > So, he will still have to pay a good amount in taxes, and that amount shouldn’t be too far off from the normal tax burden since the secondary markets likely priced Facebook stock fairly close to what it will be priced at once the IPO happens. Wrong. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/19 "2012-05-12T16:14:06Z")
where it really gets murky is not citizenship but residency. A lot of countries have a law that if you stay more than 90 days you are a resident and are supposed to pay personal income tax in that country if you earned any money while there. But if you for example own a company or a massive stock portfolio or get royalties from intellectual property you could continuously travel spending less than 90 days in any one country so you are a resident nowhere. If you have citizenship in a country that does not tax your income earned while you are not a resident (which is most of them except the US) then effectively you don’t owe personal income tax anywhere. Several years back I went and spoke to a “tax minimization” consultant company and yes apparently there are ultra wealthy people that do exactly what I have described. The final piece is just to have your company that owns whatever it is in a nation with no company tax, and it does period payments to you, viola no personal income tax, no company taxes. Wouldn’t surprise me if he adopts this strategy. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/20 "2012-05-12T18:42:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The article is wrong on that. > > [http://www.hantzmonwiebel.com/live\_data/documents/ruling-59-60.pdf](http://www.hantzmonwiebel.com/live_data/documents/ruling-59-60.pdf) > > Read Section 8. The original article says the following: > [@](#): > > Saverin won’t escape all U.S. taxes. Americans who give up their citizenship owe what is effectively an exit tax on the capital gains from their stock holdings, even if they don’t sell the shares, said Reuven S. Avi-Yonah, director of the international tax program at the University of Michigan’s law school. For tax purposes, the IRS treats the stock as if it has been sold. So you are contending that the director of the international tax program at UM’s law schools is mistaken? I read section 8. Please explain why you think this would apply? One reason it seemingly won’t is because Facebook doesn’t fit the definitions specified in the ruling: > [@](#): > > Where the option, or buy and sell agreement, is the result of voluntary action by the stockholders and is binding during the life as well as at the death of the stockholders, such agreement may or may not, depending upon the circumstances of each case, fix the value for estate tax purposes. **However, such agreement is a factor to be considered, with other relevant factors, in determining fair market value.** Where the stockholder is free to dispose of his shares during life and the option is to become effective only upon his death, the fair market value is not limited to the option price. Clearly, the IRS is not going to fall for this. Also consider the following: > [@](#): > > .03 Closely held corporations are those corporations the shares of which are owned by a relatively limited number of stockholders. Often the entire stock issue is held by one family. The result of this situation is that little, if any, trading in the shares takes place. There is, therefore, no established market for the stock and such sales as occur at irregular intervals seldom reflect all of the elements of a representative transaction as defined by the term “fair market value." Facebook is likely _not_ a closely held corporation, lots of trading occurs in at least 2 different markets on regular intervals, and there is a known fair market value for their stock. The pdf you linked to also says the following: > [@](#): > > In valuing the stock of closely held corporations, or the stock of corporations where market quotations are not available, all other available financial data, as well as all relevant factors affecting the fair market value must be considered for estate tax and gift tax purposes. No general formula may be given that is applicable to the many different valuation situations arising in the valuation of such stock. However, the general approach, methods, and factors which must be considered in valuing such securities are outlined. Again, market quotations are available as is financial data. Second, the first the article said the tax that would apply was the exit tax which stems from the [heart act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriation_tax) of 2008. [Here](http://renunciationguide.com/Exit-Tax-on-Renunciants.html) is what seems like a detailed explanation of how the tax works. > [@](#): > > Mark-to-market tax: an exit tax on the “deemed sale” of all your assets > > The first main provision is a tax on the “deemed sale” of all your assets the day before expatriation. In other words, you are taxed on the mark-to-market net gain of all your assets. > > For the mark-to-market tax, you calculate as if you had sold all your assets on the day before expatriation. You have to pay tax on the theoretical profit which that sale would have given you. > > The first $627,000 (as of 2010) is excluded, so only a net gain of above $627,000 is taxed. > > As an example, let’s say that the value of all your assets the day before your expatriation is $3,000,000. You calculate that your basis, or the price you paid for those assets, is $1,000,000. So your net gain, or paper profit, from the “deemed sale” is $2,000,000. You’re allowed to exclude $627,000 (as of 2010) of that, so the amount subject to tax will be $1,373,000. > > The actual tax you have to pay is whatever tax would apply if you actually had sold the assets the day before expatriation. So depending on your assets, it might be some combination of short-term gains, long-term gains, etc, and would be taxed accordingly. > > Again, although you don’t actually sell anything, it’s all taxed for IRS purposes exactly as if you actually had sold it all. It also seems you may be able to gift a decent amount without taxation (I think 5mm). > [@Terr](#): > > Then consider that Facebook has a restrictive repurchase agreement setting a price of $0.01 per share. This restrictive agreement expires upon IPO. > Wrong. Again, your argument makes no sense. Here is another [article](http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/05/12/saverins-citizenship-renunciation-before-facebook-ipo-will-increase-not-reduce-his-tax-bill/), that aligns with what I said earlier, that I am sure you disagree with. > [@](#): > > Now, it is true that there may well be future savings on his tax bills. Any profits or income he makes from the date of citizenship renunciation onwards will obviously be free of US taxation. And by timing his renunciation well before Facebook’s IPO he will also be taxed not on the IPO value of his stock, but on whatever was the value in the private, secondary, markets for Facebook stock at that time. But his tax bill will be based upon a calculation of his selling his entire estate and booking the profits. This obviously includes his entire Facebook stake: something that it doesn’t appear that he is selling in the IPO. > > So, in current terms, the net effect of his citizenship renunciation on his immediate tax bill is to increase it, hugely. For it will, at minimum, start with the idea that he’s just made a $3.5 billion or so profit (adjusted downwards for the difference between the private market value of Facebook last fall and the IPO price) on his Facebook stock which he got originally for minimal amounts of money. At the standard 15% long term capital gains rate that’s near $500 million right there. In the long term, yes, almost certainly a reduction in his tax bills, but at the cost of pushing up his current tax payment. Please explain how all these experts got it wrong? This isn’t People magazine here. I typically trust these various news outlets on matters like this (WSJ, Forbes, NYT, LAT, etc.). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658.md?page=2)