# A brilliant tax move by Facebook co-founder **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658 "2012-05-12T00:13:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/101 "2012-05-17T15:03:51Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Taxation during Eisenhower’s administration was higher than in China at the same period if I recall correctly. Certainly higher than other industrial nations. GDP grew. GDP grew because after WW-II we were the only game in town. All the other industrialized nations had to physically rebuild after the war while the US enjoyed an industrial complex that was virtually unscathed. It was a one-time gift of wealth never to be repeated. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/102 "2012-05-17T15:14:36Z")
He’s willing to give up US citizenship and be a tax exile? Okay, that’s his decision. Personally, I think giving up the right of abode to save a few tens of millions on a net worth of _billions_ is ridiculously short-sighted, but that’s my opinion. What I really don’t understand is why this thread was started in the first place. I’m assuming it’s supposed to be some kind of fiscal-conservative gotcha, in which case I hope the OP has learned his lesson. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And Mr. Saverin is not an oil sheik. Are you under the impression that being an oil sheik is how wealthy foreigners make their money? Only a fraction of them are. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/103 "2012-05-17T16:50:43Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The State Department chartered jets to evacuate U.S. citizens from Egypt during the antigovernment protests there a few years ago. We regularly protest and try to get U.S. citizens released from Iran and Peru, for instance, when it appears they’re being unlawfully held. We may argue about whether or not Uncle Sam is doing enough in these situations, but read the front of your passport - foreign powers are made aware that U.S. citizens abroad have their government watching out for them. > > The Facebook guy’s been in the U.S. since he was eleven and has made (or will make) big bucks due to the upbringing he had, the education he received and the work he did, all of it here. If he wants to give up his U.S. citizenship now just to keep a bit more of an obscene amount of money, well, sure, he can, but I call it a dick move. “Taxes are the price we pay for civilization,” Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. wrote. I would hope that an immigrant raised in the U.S., who has enjoyed the blessings of liberty, prosperity and security here, would value his U.S. citizenship more than that. > > And so what if the U.S. is the only country that taxes earnings of its citizens abroad? The U.S. is unique in a lot of ways - many good, some bad. The Constitution gives Congress the power to tax, and that’s a power Congress has chosen to exert. If compliance is cumbersome, it can be improved. If it’s a bad law, it can be repealed. > > I wouldn’t give up my citizenship for any sum. It’s a priceless birthright to me. I agree 100% with this. The guy would have been fabulously wealthy after taxes so it is just a dick move and actually kind of sad. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/104 "2012-05-17T17:04:31Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I agree 100% with this. The guy would have been fabulously wealthy after taxes so it is just a dick move and actually kind of sad. Why? He’s been living there for 3 years and plans to stay. There’s really nothing dickish or sad about someone moving. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/105 "2012-05-17T17:34:22Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Why? He’s been living there for 3 years and plans to stay. There’s really nothing dickish or sad about someone moving. I concur. Why should he have to pay taxes to a country that he gets no support from except: 1. The privilege of being ignored by the ambassador if he’s sentenced to caning for chewing gum. 2. President Obama personally making sure Elizabeth II doesn’t go to Singapore and get all up in his grill. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/106 "2012-05-17T18:08:05Z")
Now he’s getting some attention on Capitol Hill: [Senators Go After Eduardo Saverin, Facebook Co-Founder, For Dumping U.S. Passport, Avoiding Taxes (UPDATE) | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/17/eduardo-saverin-facebook-cofounder-citizenship-taxes-chuck-schumer_n_1524349.html) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/107 "2012-05-17T18:24:02Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Why? He’s been living there for 3 years and plans to stay. There’s really nothing dickish or sad about someone moving. I agree he is free to go live wherever he wants (and that will have him). However, h made the move to renounce his US citizenship late last year. The timing is extremely suggestive that he did it as a tax dodge. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/108 "2012-05-17T18:27:26Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I concur. Why should he have to pay taxes to a country that he gets no support from except: > > 1. The privilege of being ignored by the ambassador if he’s sentenced to caning for chewing gum. > 2. President Obama personally making sure Elizabeth II doesn’t go to Singapore and get all up in his grill. Except his family came to the US and naturalized here to avoid trouble in Brazil and then he took advantage of the US system we all do for education and so on. Then he started a company in the US, the company got fabulously popular and he used the US court system to assert his rights to a piece of that pie which made him fabulously wealthy. Other than that what did the US do for him? (Reminds me of the famous Monty Python skit on [“What did the Romans ever do for us?”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso)) ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/109 "2012-05-17T18:44:05Z")
[New York Times article](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/technology/a-facebook-cofounder-reflects-on-the-path-forward.html) on Eduardo Saverin, which notes, “Coming on the eve of the Facebook I.P.O., the news brought into sharp focus Mr. Saverin’s tax savings, which could easily exceed $100 million.” Also, he says, “This had nothing to do with taxes. I was born in Brazil, I was an American citizen for about 10 years. I thought of myself as a global citizen.” ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/110 "2012-05-17T18:45:36Z")
Also, [Bloomberg thinks](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-16/facebook-s-saverin-may-save-67-million-on-u-s-tax-bill.html) he might save $67 million, although the exit tax will be about $365 million. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/111 "2012-05-18T02:27:16Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …it makes sense that you pay taxes in the country that you live in. That’s how the rest of the world does it. What sense is there in making your citizens pay tax twice? > > The US system is extremely complicated and provides all sorts of headaches for banks and other institutions around the world. It can even be difficult for US citizens to open bank accounts overseas. > > [Offshore bank accounts: no Americans allowed - CSMonitor.com](http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/The-Circle-Bastiat/2012/0514/Offshore-bank-accounts-no-Americans-allowed) > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/business/law-to-find-tax-evaders-denounced.html?pagewanted=all](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/business/law-to-find-tax-evaders-denounced.html?pagewanted=all) > > Its a silly law and a silly requirement and the only defense of it in this thread appears to be patriotism. No “defense” is required. It’s a perfectly sensible law within the authority of the US government. As a practical matter, nothing forces Americans living abroad to pay US income taxes. They just shouldn’t expect a warm welcome when they return. _shrug_ If they want to enjoy the benefits of being an American citizen, such as they are, they suck it up and deal with the law. Nothing prevents New Zealand, or the UK, or even Somalia from enacting a similar law to protect its tax base. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > [New York Times article](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/technology/a-facebook-cofounder-reflects-on-the-path-forward.html) on Eduardo Saverin, which notes, “Coming on the eve of the Facebook I.P.O., the news brought into sharp focus Mr. Saverin’s tax savings, which could easily exceed $100 million.” Also, he says, “This had nothing to do with taxes. I was born in Brazil, I was an American citizen for about 10 years. I thought of myself as a global citizen.” Bet he didn’t mention that during his naturalization interviews. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/112 "2012-05-18T09:24:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Nothing prevents New Zealand, or the UK, or even Somalia from enacting a similar law to protect its tax base. …except of course, for the fact that every other country has determined that such a law would be stupid. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/113 "2012-05-18T12:16:17Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …except of course, for the fact that every other country has determined that such a law would be stupid. Interesting that _argumentum ad mundum_ is so compelling in this case, yet seemingly meaningless when applied to, say, universal health care. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/114 "2012-05-18T14:13:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Bet he didn’t mention that during his naturalization interviews. If he was a minor when his parents naturalized, he was automatically naturalized without interview. I don’t hold him responsible for this decision any more than I would hold the child of illegal aliens responsible for their parents entering the country illegally. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …except of course, for the fact that every other country has determined that such a law would be stupid. I think there might be one or two other countries that tax worldwide. Don’t forget the 100K expat exemption (your first 100K of foreign earned income is not subject to US income tax). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/115 "2012-05-18T14:51:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think there might be one or two other countries that tax worldwide. I checked. People usually claim it for Libya or Philippines. That’s incorrect. Could not find any other country doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/116 "2012-05-18T14:52:07Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If he was a minor when his parents naturalized, he was automatically naturalized without interview. I don’t hold him responsible for this decision any more than I would hold the child of illegal aliens responsible for their parents entering the country illegally. > > I think there might be one or two other countries that tax worldwide. Don’t forget the 100K expat exemption (your first 100K of foreign earned income is not subject to US income tax). He’d be more concerned with capital gains which is taxed as an American overseas… even if the money has no relation to the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/117 "2012-05-18T21:06:11Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > He’d be more concerned with capital gains which is taxed as an American overseas… even if the money has no relation to the USA. Not if he renounces citizenship. Then he pays taxes on the built in gain and then he is done. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/118 "2012-05-18T23:30:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I checked. People usually claim it for Libya or Philippines. That’s incorrect. Could not find any other country doing it. Check for South Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/119 "2012-05-19T00:03:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …except of course, for the fact that every other country has determined that such a law would be stupid. No other country’s money is the de facto global reserve currency, either. Does _that_ mean the US is stupid for leveraging that status in government borrowing? No, it just means other countries couldn’t get away with it. It’s not stupid. In fact, by any objective measure, it’s a very clever move. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > If he was a minor when his parents naturalized, he was automatically naturalized without interview. I don’t hold him responsible for this decision any more than I would hold the child of illegal aliens responsible for their parents entering the country illegally. Minors are not automatically naturalized when their parents are naturalized. They are automatically eligible for residency, which is not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658/120 "2012-05-19T03:48:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, it just means other countries couldn’t get away with it. They can’t? Why not? I’m still a Canadian, but I don’t live in Canada and I don’t pay taxes there. Why would I? I don’t earn my money there, I don’t take advantage of any perceived benefits of living there. Some of the comments here remind me of this [cartoon](http://wemeantwell.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/USA-map.jpg). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-brilliant-tax-move-by-facebook-co-founder/621658.md?page=7)