# A Bunch of nervous Nellies who don't feel safe eating in a Sonic where they can't carry guns. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 28, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423 "2014-05-28T01:27:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/221 "2014-05-29T19:14:27Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Right, but isn’t that sort of missing the point? > > While i think these guys are dicks, the state where they carried out their little stunt does, in fact, allow open carry, at least of the type of weapons that they were carrying. This debate isn’t about whether people should be able to carry guns in violation of the law; it’s about whether it’s necessary for people to carry guns even when such carrying is legal. In reading the entire article in the O.P, it seems that these idiots might have been in violation when they did this at a Chilli’s “Long guns are not permitted in our restaurants based on regulation from the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission,” the spokesperson said, “which prohibits a business that is licensed to sell or serve alcoholic beverages from allowing shotguns or rifles into the building.” According to the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission: “If an individual does choose to carry a rifle or shotgun into a TABC-licensed business, …a business owner may ask a patron to leave the premises. If the patron refuses, that individual may be subject to criminal trespassing charges under Texas Penal Code Section 30.05.” ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/222 "2014-05-29T19:19:14Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Too long to read the whole thread…but can you even eat **in** a Sonic? I thought they were all drive-up or drive thru. In the video I saw earlier this week, they were in a fenced patio area out back, surrounded by parking lot. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/223 "2014-05-29T19:22:01Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > In reading the entire article in the O.P, it seems that these idiots might have been in violation when they did this at a Chilli’s > > “Long guns are not permitted in our restaurants based on regulation from the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission,” the spokesperson said, “which prohibits a business that is licensed to sell or serve alcoholic beverages from allowing shotguns or rifles into the building.” > > According to the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission: “If an individual does choose to carry a rifle or shotgun into a TABC-licensed business, …a business owner may ask a patron to leave the premises. If the patron refuses, that individual may be subject to criminal trespassing charges under Texas Penal Code Section 30.05.” But none of that suggests that the people carrying the guns broke the law. The law does not prohibit people from carrying the guns. It prohibits business owners who serve alcohol from allowing guns onto the premises. So, had the men been allowed to remain, it would actually have been the business, and not the men themselves, that was violating the law. The only way the men would be violating the law is if they refused the business owner’s request to leave. But this is not what happened. Edit: Here is the text of the [TABC press release](http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/home/press_releases/2013/20130906.asp) on the subject: > [@](#): > > Although an individual may have the legal authority to openly carry certain firearms in public, a business that is licensed to sell or serve alcoholic beverages is prohibited by state law from allowing rifles or shotguns in the building. > > Specifically, Section 11.61(e) of the Alcoholic Beverage Code says that TABC shall, after the opportunity for a hearing, cancel a permit if the permittee knowingly allowed a person to possess a firearm in a building on the licensed premises. There are some exceptions included in this law, including licensed concealed handguns. > > If an individual does choose to carry a rifle or shotgun into a TABC-licensed business, the individual is placing the business owner’s TABC license at risk. Also remember, a business owner may ask a patron to leave the premises. If the patron refuses, that individual may be subject to criminal trespassing charges under Texas Penal Code Section 30.05. > > We ask that Texans, while exercising individual rights, please respect the obligations of business owners under state law. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/224 "2014-05-29T19:30:57Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > According to the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission: “If an individual does choose to carry a rifle or shotgun into a TABC-licensed business, …a business owner may ask a patron to leave the premises. If the patron refuses, that individual may be subject to criminal trespassing charges under Texas Penal Code Section 30.05.” You didn’t link to your source for what the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission says, and you elided a phrase with the use of ellipses. What was in the “…” that you left out? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/225 "2014-05-29T19:35:50Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I’ve already said that I respect your legal right to carry the gun in places where that right exists, and where you’re not prohibited by private property owners. > > What I find rather odd in this whole debate, though, is that you accuse others of paranoia because they’d prefer not to eat among a bunch of armed strangers, yet you apparently refuse to accept that the very desire and (perceived) need to carry a gun everywhere with you might, itself, be the result of irrational concerns or paranoia. Speaking for myself – it’s not. Although I have a concealed carry permit – and of course don’t need any permit anyway in Virginia for open carry – I rarely do. When I do, it’s not about the fear of being attacked but the desire to normalize the sight. So for myself, no, I wouldn’t accept that characterization. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/226 "2014-05-29T19:38:34Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > And also to add, that in my state open carry requires a permit from the Attorney General, which are exceedingly rare, and we do not recognize other states’ open carry permits. So if this particular group of idiots were to show up are here, the police would do more than just roll up. That’s not quite how I read the law. As I read the Rhode Island scheme, it seems a city or town with a local police chief can empower the chief to issue permits. If the town declines to do so, then the A.G. can still issue permits. In the article you linked above, a town with no police chief sought to empower their Town Clerk and Town Sergeant to issue permits, and then reversed course. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/227 "2014-05-29T19:41:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > When I do, it’s not about the fear of being attacked but the desire to normalize the sight. Do i understand you correctly? Your whole purpose of carrying a gun in public is to convince other people that there’s nothing wrong or unusual about carrying a gun in public? If this is true, i think you’ve actually raised the bar for irrational arguments for carrying a gun. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/228 "2014-05-29T19:44:48Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > Let’s be realistic here…this argument of open guns in public falls into the same versus as many other things…rural versus urban. Growing up in Arizona, it was an open carry state and mostly rural. Thus, it simply was no big thing to see guns almost anywhere. When we frame a debate of guns as if this country were one and the same everywhere, we run into problems. As Tucson became less rural and more urban, guns made a lot less sense to a lot more people. > > This same rural vs urban was the problem with the 55mph speed limit or many other things that have made lousy law. What is true in Rhode Island or New York makes less than zero sense in rural Nevada. I would hazard to guess that this same group of idiots wouldn’t pull this same stunt in Elko, Nevada because it makes no sense. In Elko, if I saw them, I would think, ‘hunters.’ In downtown Chicago, I might more think, survivalist nuts. > > It is quite cute to frame your opposition as idiots or for example, those too insecure who need guns, but that at best is disingenuous. Both sides of this and most any other debate have quite reasonable and considered positions. It is pretty lame to resort to such 3rd grade dismissive arguments. > > You CAN eat at a Sonic, but I don’t recommend it. The food is poor. You takes your chances. The gentlemen in the video are in Texas. Certainly I would think that, if any populace were by and large accepting of open carry, it would be the populace of Texas. Yet these gentlemen, who presumably know the mood of their own state, seem to be operating under the impression that the population needs “exposure therapy”. Now it may be that they’re pulling these stunts in urban areas of Texas. If so, and if you’re correct that the reasonableness of an opinion rests on where you are, then they’re trying to force an unreasonable situation on the populace of that urban area. You and I do agree on one thing. When the first Sonic opened in my area, a family member had a strong desire to try it out and had some sort of coupon. We went and ordered the coupon deal for everyone. Afterwards, all were in agreement, NEVER AGAIN! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/229 "2014-05-29T19:46:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s not quite how I read the law. > > As I read the Rhode Island scheme, it seems a city or town with a local police chief can empower the chief to issue permits. If the town declines to do so, then the A.G. can still issue permits. > > In the article you linked above, a town with no police chief sought to empower their Town Clerk and Town Sergeant to issue permits, and then reversed course. RIGL § 11-47-11: > [@](#): > > (a) The licensing authorities of any city or town shall, upon application of any person twenty-one (21) years of age or over having a bona fide residence or place of business within the city or town, or of any person twenty-one (21) years of age or over having a bona fide residence within the United States and a license or permit to carry a pistol or revolver concealed upon his or her person issued by the authorities of any other state or subdivision of the United States, issue a license or permit to the person to carry concealed upon his or her person a pistol or revolver everywhere within this state for four (4) years from date of issue, if it appears that the applicant has good reason to fear an injury to his or her person or property or has any other proper reason for carrying a pistol or revolver, and that he or she is a suitable person to be so licensed. Also it appears that Rhode Island does recognize out-of-state permits, but only for persons passing through Rhode Island. See RIGL § 11-47-8: > [@](#): > > The provisions of these sections shall not apply to any person who is the holder of a valid license or permit issued by the licensing authority of another state, or territory of the United States, or political subdivision of the state or territory, allowing him or her to carry a pistol or revolver in any vehicle or conveyance or on or about his or her person whether visible or concealed, provided the person is merely transporting the firearm through the state in a vehicle or other conveyance without any intent on the part of the person to detain him or herself or remain within the state of Rhode Island. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/230 "2014-05-29T19:48:14Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Do i understand you correctly? Your whole purpose of carrying a gun in public is to convince other people that there’s nothing wrong or unusual about carrying a gun in public? > > If this is true, i think you’ve actually raised the bar for irrational arguments for carrying a gun. I obviously don’t agree it’s irrational. I believe a right that is not exercised is one that is ripe to be lost. Can you explain why you feel this is irrational? ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/231 "2014-05-29T19:51:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You didn’t link to your source for what the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission says, and you elided a phrase with the use of ellipses. > > What was in the “…” that you left out? I am afraid I can’t answer your question completely, as I was quoting the article posted in the O. P. I did edit out the phrase “the individual is placing the business owner’s TABC license at risk”, originally positioned directly before the ellipses, but the ellipses themselves were actually copy/pasted from the article in the O. P. The article does include a link to the code in question. To save you some time, I am going to provide the link to the TABC press release **mhendo** mention above, because it provides a link to what are apparently two pertinent codes, including the one cited by the article. Happy reading. [http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/home/press\_releases/2013/20130906.asp](http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/home/press_releases/2013/20130906.asp) ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/232 "2014-05-29T19:54:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > When I do, it’s not about the fear of being attacked but the desire to normalize the sight. To what end do you want to normalize the sight? So that others can also carry thus working towards further normalization? What is your reason for wanting it normalized? Once it’s completely normalized (assuming it can be) what will society have gained? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/233 "2014-05-29T19:55:39Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > “Officer, there is someone in the McDonald’s with a gun.” What did I do wrong? Nothing. But you realize that the operator would ask you questions about what was going on, right? I suppose if you hung up at that point, police would respond. But if you answered the operator’s questions honestly (and were in Virginia) the mere fact that a man had a gun in a holster would not mandate officer response. > [@](#): > > If you had cited a Virginia law, you might have something. But I have lived most of my 40 plus years in Rhode Island. I have never seen anyone open carry around here. If I were to call the police about that around here, I am certain there would be a response and no follow up question from the 911 operator about whether there is a holster involved. And that makes sense. In Rhode Island, the act is presumptively illegal; an officer seeing someone with a holstered pistol has probable cause to believe the individual is violating RIGL § 11-47-8. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/234 "2014-05-29T20:00:39Z")
**Bricker** , I will as always bow to your legal wisdom. However, I do believe that RIGL § 11-47-11: which you cited specifically says "to carry concealed upon his or her person a pistol or revolver ". I do not see anything about open carry there. As for RI recognizing other states open carry licenses as you cite in RIGL § 11-47-8:, I will concede. However, if I see anyone open carrying in RI, I will still call the proper authorities and let them determine if the person has the proper permit to do so in my state. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/235 "2014-05-29T20:01:45Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > To what end do you want to normalize the sight? So that others can also carry thus working towards further normalization? What is your reason for wanting it normalized? > > Once it’s completely normalized (assuming it can be) what will society have gained? Society will have gained an important bulwark against the erosion of the Second Amendment. From the founding of this nation through the beginning of the twentieth century, many state constitutions enshrined the right of citizens to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and the state. That’s an important concept – a person’s natural right to self-defense. The Amendment itself implicitly recognizes that it simply codifies a pre-existing right – it does not establish the right, but simply forbids infringing it. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/236 "2014-05-29T20:07:56Z")
[Relevant](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/19/1299907/-Cartoon-Guns-everywhere), as always. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/237 "2014-05-29T20:09:42Z")
> [@WreckingCrew](#): > > **Bricker** , I will as always bow to your legal wisdom. However, I do believe that RIGL § 11-47-11: which you cited specifically says "to carry concealed upon his or her person a pistol or revolver ". I do not see anything about open carry there. Good point. > [@RIGL § 11-47-8](#): > > No person shall, without a license or permit issued as provided in §§ 11-47-11, 11-47-12 and 11-47-18, carry a pistol or revolver in any vehicle or conveyance or on or about his or her person\*\* whether visible\*\* or concealed… (emphasis added) But the permit allows only for concealed carry. However: > [@RIGL § 11-47-10](#): > > No license or permit shall be required for the purpose of carrying or transporting any pistol or revolver from one’s home or place of business to a bona fide target practice range, nor from a bona fide target practice range to one’s home or place of business, to engage in any shoot meet, or practice, provided that the pistol or revolver is broken down, unloaded and **carried as openly as circumstances will permit** , or provided that the pistols or revolvers are unloaded and secured in a separate container suitable for the purpose. (emphasis added) Although your main point is a good one: it looks like open carry, unless you’re carrying to the pistol range, is not permitted period. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/238 "2014-05-29T20:18:40Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > [Relevant](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/19/1299907/-Cartoon-Guns-everywhere), as always. No. Lampooning, hyperbolic commentary is not argument. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/239 "2014-05-29T20:23:18Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Do i understand you correctly? Your whole purpose of carrying a gun in public is to convince other people that there’s nothing wrong or unusual about carrying a gun in public? > > If this is true, i think you’ve actually raised the bar for irrational arguments for carrying a gun. At least he’s referring to a gun he already owns. If you’re looking for irrationality, how about the panic to buy AR-15’s to keep Obama from taking them away? Colt shareholders loved that. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/240 "2014-05-29T20:31:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Although your main point is a good one: it looks like open carry, unless you’re carrying to the pistol range, is not permitted period. Makes me wonder how often someone pulled over with a gun in their car claims to be on their way to a shooting range. At 2 AM. Here’s the thing, I do know people who own firearms. Doesn’t bother me one bit. In my line of work, I also come into contact with hunters who are obviously carrying. But it is just a completely different way of life around here. Even seeing long arms out and about is rare, and I don’t mean just in Downtown Providence. If those guys in the video showed up at a restaurant in RI carrying rifles, I would call the police. Yes, even knowing that open carry of long arms is legal, because it just isn’t done around here. And that behavior is so far outside of the norm around here that I would be concerned for my safety. I would feel the same way as I would about reporting a driver that I thought was operating in an unsafe manner. I am sure you disagree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423.md?page=13)