# A Bunch of nervous Nellies who don't feel safe eating in a Sonic where they can't carry guns. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 28, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423 "2014-05-28T01:27:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/21 "2014-05-28T02:27:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Now that I’ve watched the video, I did not see a great deal of complaining. Seems to me the manager told them he wouldn’t serve them, and they left. But it’s also obvious that these guys are going around looking for exactly this type of confrontation, right? They debate waiting for the police so that they can “interview them”. They’re looking to make a scene. They’re looking to be rejected and kicked out. Why else would they be filming it? They’re making the statement that they believe they should be able to carry anyplace they want, regardless of the opinion of the owners or managers of the establishment. You yourself just stated that you disagree with that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/22 "2014-05-28T02:34:25Z")
As a gun owner, I feel open carry is stupid. My rationale is this: if I’m a terrorist or a criminal and I see you with a gun, yours is the first ass I would waste. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/23 "2014-05-28T02:47:18Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Serious question: Can anyone here point me to any examples where a random armed person was able to stop someone on a rampage? I am not referring to law enforcement, but someone who happened to be on the scene and also happened to be carrying, AND decided to get involved. > > We can speculate about past massacres and rampages - IF someone had a gun, THEN they PROBABLY would have been stopped. Seems to make sense, but how about some examples where things really went down that way. Well, [m.youtube.com/watch?v=L8oEO\_MV57I](http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L8oEO_MV57I) has an armed store customer defending himself during an attempted robbery of the store. But you specified a rampage. How about December 9, 2007? The New Life Church in Colorado was attacked by a gunman, who shot four people – two were killed. A church volunteer with a concealed carry permit shot back and injured the gunman, who then killed himself. January 2002, the Appalachian School of Law: a disgruntled student shot and killed the dean, a professor, and a student before being confronted by two other students with personal firearms who disarmed him. Saturday, July 11, 2009, Golden Food Market in Richmond, Virginia. The shooter entered the store and opened fire, hitting the owner and then shooting at customers. A friend of the owner was open carrying a pistol and returned fire, critically wounding the assailant and stopping the attack. July 2012, the Peach House RV Park in Early, Texas. A shooter had killed two people and their two dogs before taking cover and shooting randomly at people. An officer arrived but did not have a clear shot; a gun owner at the RV park made a nearly sixty yard shot with a pistol to stop the shooter. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/24 "2014-05-28T02:49:45Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > But it’s also obvious that these guys are going around looking for exactly this type of confrontation, right? They debate waiting for the police so that they can “interview them”. They’re looking to make a scene. They’re looking to be rejected and kicked out. Why else would they be filming it? > > They’re making the statement that they believe they should be able to carry anyplace they want, regardless of the opinion of the owners or managers of the establishment. You yourself just stated that you disagree with that. No, I don’t agree that’s what they’re saying. After all, they left without communicating that sentiment to the manager. They are looking to make a scene, yes, but in order to drive home the point that their conduct is legal and should be unremarkable. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/25 "2014-05-28T02:57:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I bet 21 of the patrons eating Big Macs and Happy Meals on July 18, 1984 in San Ysidro, California would disagree with your cavalier threat assessment ability. Let me get this straight. A guy walked into a restaurant and shot forty people (several of them children). And you’re saying this is an argument in favor of bringing guns into restaurants. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/26 "2014-05-28T03:09:16Z")
[Here’s a list](http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2012/12/mass-killings-stopped-by-armed-citizens.html). Some overlap with Bricker’s post. [Another page.](http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/) Analysis of 100 shootings. > [@](#): > > The average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 14.29 > > The average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by a civilian is 2.33 ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/27 "2014-05-28T03:13:19Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Anyone with a fifth grade education would question your risk assessment ability. How about this: I’ve been in one serious car accident in my life, in 1998. I’ve driven hundreds of thousands of miles since then with nary an accident. Why am I wasting all of this money on air bags, seat belts, and crumple zones in my cars? Otherwise, what’s wrong with patrons refusing to do business with a company that doesn’t allow them to do X when X is something they enjoy doing? It makes even less sense to boycott a restaurant like Chick-Fil-A when their gay marriage opinion doesn’t affect the restaurant experience. I don’t personally get involved with boycotts, but if I liked to open carry a gun, I would eat where the manager allows me to open carry and politely tell the other place why they lost my business. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/28 "2014-05-28T03:14:25Z")
Maybe I wasn’t clear. I agree that they left without an argument. But it seems obvious to me that their whole point in doing this, and taping it, is to show themselves as being discriminated against; to say that they believe that they should be able to open carry anywhere they want, and if they’re not allowed to do so, it’s discrimination. Calling it discrimination is saying that, even though they can’t carry everywhere, they should be able to. What you implied was that you would respect the opinion of the owner. They didn’t do that. Yes, they left, but that was just to avoid legal issues, and to gain the moral high ground in their video presentation, but the way they talked showed anything but respect. It seems pretty obvious that they don’t want to have to respect the owner’s opinion. As far is it being unremarkable, it is anything but that. To many people it is quite remarkable and _frightening_. Going around frightening people with guns (especially with the spate of incidents we’ve had in recent times) is not some noble fight for freedom, it’s simply going around frightening people with guns. That makes them assholes. And regardless of how anybody feels about open carry, it’s hard for me to see how anyone would feel safer with these particular fools carrying guns. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/29 "2014-05-28T03:22:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, [m.youtube.com/watch?v=L8oEO\_MV57I](http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L8oEO_MV57I) has an armed store customer defending himself during an attempted robbery of the store. > > But you specified a rampage. How about December 9, 2007? The New Life Church in Colorado was attacked by a gunman, who shot four people – two were killed. A church volunteer with a concealed carry permit shot back and injured the gunman, who then killed himself. That wasn’t some random parishioner who happened to be carrying, she was a volunteer security officer who had been (still was?) a police officer. It was her job to provide security for the church. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/30 "2014-05-28T03:23:20Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Otherwise, what’s wrong with patrons refusing to do business with a company that doesn’t allow them to do X when X is something they enjoy doing? Nothing wrong with that at all. But a courteous and intelligent patron, if he knows that the thing he enjoys doing is something that a great many businesses prohibit and that makes a great many other patrons uncomfortable, would contact the company or establishment in advance to find out whether he would be allowed to do X on their premises. Not just barge onto their premises with a group of people actively engaged in X and then argue with the manager that he needs to do X in order to feel safe on the premises. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/31 "2014-05-28T03:23:59Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Here’s a list](http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2012/12/mass-killings-stopped-by-armed-citizens.html). Some overlap with Bricker’s post. > > [Another page.](http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/) Analysis of 100 shootings. > > > [@](#): > > > > The average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 14.29 > > > > The average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by a civilian is 2.33 Just so we have a complete picture: [ul][li]What is the average when no one stops the shooter (the perpetrator kills himself, runs out of ammo, simply leaves, etc.).[/li][li]What is the average number when the rescuer was close carrying?[/li][\*]What is the average number when the rescuer was open carrying? (Since that is what this thread is about.)[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/32 "2014-05-28T03:27:42Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > That wasn’t some random parishioner who happened to be carrying, she was a volunteer security officer who had been (still was?) a police officer. It was her job to provide security for the church. Why would God need a security officer? And what’s wrong with providing your own security? I will say one thing. I think open carry is foolish. it paints a target on you if you do encounter someone up to some homicidal mayhem if he spots you first. And long guns are much harder to overlook and deploy quickly. And if it’s slung across your back, you have lost some trigger control. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/33 "2014-05-28T03:30:11Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > How about this: I’ve been in one serious car accident in my life, in 1998. I’ve driven hundreds of thousands of miles since then with nary an accident. Why am I wasting all of this money on air bags, seat belts, and crumple zones in my cars? Because you are much more likely to be killed or badly injured in a car accident than in a random mass shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/34 "2014-05-28T03:32:07Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > The guys in this video were booted out of a Sonic because the restaurant didn’t want them openly carrying firearms. By their own words they don’t feel safe eating there. If I felt that an establishment was so dangerous that it was necessary to openly carry a weapon to go there, I wouldn’t go there with or without a weapon. Especially not for the poor to mediocre food served at Sonic. > > [Gun Activists Flaunting Assault Rifles Get Booted From Chili’s and Sonic – Mother Jones](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/guns-open-carry-chilis-sonic-videos) > > From the conversation, they’ve done this before and intend to do it again. They’re a bunch of immature assholes getting a kick out of going around deliberately causing confrontations. At some point assholes like this are going to end up getting themselves or someone else hurt. > > This isn’t even about the right to carry guns. This is about behaving yourself and acting like an adult and not going around deliberately frightening people and causing a scene. First of all, any business can restrict firearms if they want as far as i’m concerned. Second, there is a movement among some gun owners to try to normalize guns in society through exposure therapy, maybe that’s what they are trying to do. I’m not sure that things will work out the way they imagine. Third, would you be OK with carrying if they were concealed carrying? There are plenty of places in the suburbs of DC where people used to carry guns openly, its kind of frowned upon now. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/35 "2014-05-28T03:40:46Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Why would God need a security officer? And what’s wrong with providing your own security? > > I will say one thing. I think open carry is foolish. it paints a target on you if you do encounter someone up to some homicidal mayhem if he spots you first. > And long guns are much harder to overlook and deploy quickly. > > And if it’s slung across your back, you have lost some trigger control. This is what I’m talking about. Why do they feel that they openly need to carry long guns? Why do they feel that they need to _openly_ carry any firearm. Regarding these fools in the video; are the guns loaded with the safety off? If not then it doesn’t seem likely that they could get off the first shot, but they will be the first target. Sure, traveling in a pack like they are might be a deterrent, but are you really going to always have 6 or 8 of your armed buddies with you when you leave home? On the other hand, if they are loaded and have the safety off, then what happens if some kid behind them decides it’s a toy? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/36 "2014-05-28T03:52:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > First of all, any business can restrict firearms if they want as far as i’m concerned. > > Second, there is a movement among some gun owners to try to normalize guns in society through exposure therapy, maybe that’s what they are trying to do. I’m not sure that things will work out the way they imagine. > > Third, would you be OK with carrying if they were concealed carrying? > > There are plenty of places in the suburbs of DC where people used to carry guns openly, its kind of frowned upon now. “Exposure therapy”. Wow. That’s not patronizing. :dubious: Allowing anyone to conceal carry seems questionable to me. I’m really not convinced that the rewards outweigh the risks. And I’m not talking about just the risks to the carrier, presumably he or she is an adult and therefore can make those decisions. I’m talking about the risks to the people around them, which are not non-existent. But I just don’t see the value of openly carrying, especially like these fools are doing it. What’s gained by this? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/37 "2014-05-28T04:04:40Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > “Exposure therapy”. Wow. That’s not patronizing. :dubious: How else would you describe it? Maybe “normalization?” . ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/38 "2014-05-28T04:07:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Actually, I pointed to two instances: I also mentioned Luby’s. > > So to be clear: are you saying that not only do risks outweigh benefits for carrying firearms, but that the conclusion is so blatantly obvious that any fifth grader can correctly reach that conclusion? That is, literally, your claim? Or is this hyperbole? No. I think it’s the case that the risks of firearms carrying outweigh the benefits, but I don’t think it’s so obvious that a fifth grader would see it. Hell, I’m probably only 75% convinced. But what is obvious to even a fifth grader is that the risks of _openly carrying firearms into a crowded restaurant against management’s wishes_ outweigh the benefits of doing so. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/39 "2014-05-28T04:10:58Z")
> [@andros](#): > > How else would you describe it? Maybe “normalization?” > . It’s not about the semantics. It’s about the concept. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/40 "2014-05-28T05:07:57Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Here’s a list](http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2012/12/mass-killings-stopped-by-armed-citizens.html). Some overlap with Bricker’s post. > > [Another page.](http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/) Analysis of 100 shootings. > > > [@](#): > > > > The average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 14.29 > > > > The average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by a civilian is 2.33 Very good points. Also, the NRA magazine regularly relates incidents where armed citizens thwart robberies and home invasions. > [@davidm](#): > > Allowing anyone to conceal carry seems questionable to me. I’m really not convinced that the rewards outweigh the risks. When I carry concealed, I am much safer and so is my wife because I can protect her. > [@davidm](#): > > And I’m not talking about just the risks to the carrier, presumably he or she is an adult and therefore can make those decisions. I’m talking about the risks to the people around them, which are not non-existent. Excellent point. Almost all who carry, if a threat develops, are not properly trained to respond to such situations. Fields of fire, friendlies in your line of fire, tactical positioning, etc, and that doesn’t even consider the respondent’s mental state, mental preparation, and the ability to control the flood of adrenaline. I include myself here. I am not in law enforcement. I have had some training, but if a threat develops, I have a healthy fear of responding inappropriately. And if I were to draw my weapon and injure or kill an innocent bystander, by gosh that would be a true tragedy. So, if I am carrying, yes my wife and I are much safer, but I also have a healthy fear of the possible negative consequences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423.md?page=3)