# A Bunch of nervous Nellies who don't feel safe eating in a Sonic where they can't carry guns. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 28, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423 "2014-05-28T01:27:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/461 "2014-07-03T22:49:13Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > This argument is boring me. A nervous nelly’s chances of dying in a car accident driving to the local Target are probably greater than being shot by a random CCW holder shopping at the same store. Which is only slightly more likely than a CCW holder being in a store at the same time as an armed criminal act. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/462 "2014-07-04T00:13:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Someone who expects trouble strongly enough to prepare for it is more likely to \*find \*it, hmm? No. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/463 "2014-07-04T00:45:29Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Or maybe he was honestly trying to prevent harm to others as an on-the-spot responder, and was simply unlucky enough to get blindsided. Would you still call him “stupid”, and his firearm “pocket courage”, if he’d happened to be an off-duty police officer who did the same thing? It seems not to have mattered. The guy _got himself killed_. If he was an off-duty cop, chances are he would not have been so rash, had assessed the situation before moving in. > [@](#): > > I’m going to have to ask for a cite that “gun rage” episodes have increased in FL since carry was enacted. “Carry” is not the issue, SYG is. Shoot the guy who is pissing you off. Chase that damn negro because he does not belong in the neighborhood. Certainly not dressed like that. I perceive armed citizenry creating more problems than it solves, and stand-your-ground-plug-the-fucker does not appear to be making things any better. I mean, what do you want, people in edge, ready to shoot, or people trying to get along with each other sans violence? > [@](#): > > Honestly, where does this trope come from that people who carry are ticking time bombs waiting to go off? Most people I know of who carry report that they are _ **less** _ impulsive when they carry, because they’re aware that they need to stay out of trouble and not escalate. I would prefer to feel that most of the people around me are not so paralyzingly paranoid that they need a metal dick to feel comfortable in public. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/464 "2014-07-04T00:52:41Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > This argument is boring me. A nervous nelly’s chances of dying in a car accident driving to the local Target are probably greater than being shot by a random CCW holder shopping at the same store. Speaking of scales from 1 to 10, I’m gonna go ahead and give a few people here a 1 in risk assessment. It’s the denominator, stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/465 "2014-07-04T01:32:04Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > “Carry” is not the issue, SYG is. Shoot the guy who is pissing you off. Chase that damn negro because he does not belong in the neighborhood. Certainly not dressed like that. > > I perceive armed citizenry creating more problems than it solves, and stand-your-ground-plug-the-fucker does not appear to be making things any better. I mean, what do you want, people in edge, ready to shoot, or people trying to get along with each other sans violence? > > I would prefer to feel that most of the people around me are not so paralyzingly paranoid that they need a metal dick to feel comfortable in public. 1. Ok, there was the Martin/Zimmerman episode. That’s one. Where’s the open season on African-Americans by bigoted paranoid whites you seem to be implying? 2. This is a total misconception sadly common with the anti crowd. Gun carriers are not looking or hoping for violence. Precious few gangsta’s bother to obtain carry permits. For the most part we permit holders are not cowboys, mall cops, camo wearers, vigilantes, or zero-gov preppers. Most carry concealed although we wish it wasn’t necessary to not freak out the hoplophobes. We’re grateful that our society is mostly free of violence. We’re simply prepared for the eventuality that on rare occasions it isn’t. We’re convinced that enough lawful gun carriers would improve the herd immunity, making robbery, assault and rape a losing proposition. And we resent being told we can’t be trusted with weapons. 3. That again? The anti’s seem to obsess more over the “metal penises” than the people who carry them. Who’s being paranoid? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/466 "2014-07-04T01:38:58Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I would prefer to feel that most of the people around me are not so paralyzingly paranoid that they need a metal dick to feel comfortable in public. I’d prefer people weren’t misogynistic by declaring that women, who do carry, suffer from a need to have a “metal dick.” So when I carry my gun, it’s because I want a “metal dick?” Do I even need to link to my MPSIMS thread to show how _freaking insane_ that sounds? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/467 "2014-07-04T02:21:09Z")
> [@](#): > > A 46-year-old who had been issued a concealed carry permit by the state of Minnesota allegedly shot her coworker at Walmart because she envied the other woman’s easier job. [http://frgo.parentsagainstgunviolence.com/tag/concealed-carry/](http://frgo.parentsagainstgunviolence.com/tag/concealed-carry/) I picked this CC incident due to the claim above that there have been no problems in Minnesota, as well as the mental fitness and safety claims regarding CC types. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/468 "2014-07-04T02:27:09Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > [http://frgo.parentsagainstgunviolence.com/tag/concealed-carry/](http://frgo.parentsagainstgunviolence.com/tag/concealed-carry/) > > I picked this CC incident due to the claim above that there have been no problems in Minnesota, as well as the mental fitness and safety claims regarding CC types. Ok, one out of over 100,000. It was bound to happen sometime. And since you’re of the declared opinion that no one normal could _want_ to carry a gun, I see little point in further debating any issue of mental fitness with you. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/469 "2014-07-04T02:41:25Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > [http://frgo.parentsagainstgunviolence.com/tag/concealed-carry/](http://frgo.parentsagainstgunviolence.com/tag/concealed-carry/) > > I picked this CC incident due to the claim above that there have been no problems in Minnesota, as well as the mental fitness and safety claims regarding CC types. [This study](http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/doc_pdf/MichiganConcealedCarryStudy.pdf) was done in Michigan over a 5 year period. (PDF) > [@](#): > > Comparing the entire 5-year data sample shows that for FBI major crimes, the violation rate for the CPL population is 60.41 per 100,000 population, while the violation rate for the non-CPL population is 3,765.29. > This means that for the years 2001-2006, the non-CPL population committed about 75 major crimes for every one committed by a CPL. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/470 "2014-07-04T03:20:12Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Ok, one out of over 100,000. It was bound to happen sometime. > > And since you’re of the declared opinion that no one normal could _want_ to carry a gun, I see little point in further debating any issue of mental fitness with you. Hmmm. I don’t quite recall saying that. I do think that people who want to carry guns are more likely to be nervous nellies - that is true. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/471 "2014-07-04T05:09:30Z")
Since May of 2007, 644 people have been killed by ccw permitted people in non-defensive incidents. This is as identified ONLY through media sources, so the true number is higher still. [http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm](http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm) This includes multiple other MN incidents: > [@](#): > > Concealed Handgun Permit Holder: Andrew Engeldinger suicide > Date: September 27, 2012 > People Killed: 7 (including shooter) > Circumstances: On September 27, 2012, concealed handgun permit holder Andrew Engeldinger, 36, armed with a 9mm semiautomatic Glock pistol, shot and killed six people and wounded two at Accent Signage Systems in Minneapolis before taking his own life. At the end of the workday, Engeldinger was informed by two of the company’s managers that he was losing his job. Engeldinger replied, “Oh really,” and pulled his holstered pistol and shot the two men, fatally wounding one and injuring the other. He then proceeded through the workplace, fatally shooting three additional co-workers, some of whom were trying to help other victims, as well as a United Parcel Service delivery man. He then shot another co-worker, who later died in hospital from his wounds. Engeldinger was later found by authorities in the basement of the business, dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound from the Glock pistol. Witnesses described Engeldinger as calm during the mass shooting, stating that he didn’t “appear to be moving fast but walking and moving in a normal manner.” Engeldinger had reportedly struggled with mental illness for years. He had purchased his handgun legally in October 2011 from KGS Guns and Ammo in Minneapolis for “around $620.” The ability of you people to convince yourself of the clean categories that people fall in is delusional. Breathtakingly so. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/472 "2014-07-04T05:51:07Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > 1. This is a total misconception sadly common with the anti crowd. Gun carriers are not looking or hoping for violence. Precious few gangsta’s bother to obtain carry permits. For the most part we permit holders are not cowboys, mall cops, camo wearers, vigilantes, or zero-gov preppers. Most carry concealed although we wish it wasn’t necessary to not freak out the hoplophobes. We’re grateful that our society is mostly free of violence. We’re simply prepared for the eventuality that on rare occasions it isn’t. We’re convinced that enough lawful gun carriers would improve the herd immunity, making robbery, assault and rape a losing proposition. And we resent being told we can’t be trusted with weapons. I am probably a bit more paranoid than most, but this little rant makes me look like the pinnacle of sanguine confidence. Kind of reminds me of Leon’s line from _Blade Runner_ about how it is to live in fear. > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I’d prefer people weren’t misogynistic by declaring that women, who do carry, suffer from a need to have a “metal dick.” > > So when I carry my gun, it’s because I want a “metal dick?” Do I even need to link to my MPSIMS thread to show how _freaking insane_ that sounds? I am aware of your situation in passing. It really fails to change much, though. Perhaps phallicity is inappropriate, or (most likely) it varies person-by-person, but carrying remains some sort of coping mechanism. I guess I can count myself lucky, to be able to cope in other ways. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/473 "2014-07-04T06:49:35Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Since May of 2007, 644 people have been killed by ccw permitted people in non-defensive incidents. This is as identified ONLY through media sources, so the true number is higher still. > > [http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm](http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm) > > This includes multiple other MN incidents: > > The ability of you people to convince yourself of the clean categories that people fall in is delusional. Breathtakingly so. All breath holding dramatics aside, attempting to click on any of the links to see what actual research was done brings up a Google Chrome warning that the site contains malware and then I’m booted back to the main page. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/474 "2014-07-04T15:13:21Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Hmmm. I don’t quite recall saying that. I do think that people who want to carry guns are more likely to be nervous nellies - that is true. Are you asserting that as a fact, or is it more like an unsupported musing? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/475 "2014-07-04T15:17:33Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > No. Wrong. Your turn. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/476 "2014-07-04T15:20:16Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Since May of 2007, 644 people have been killed by ccw permitted people in non-defensive incidents. This is as identified ONLY through media sources, so the true number is higher still. > > [http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm](http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm) > > This includes multiple other MN incidents: > > The ability of you people to convince yourself of the clean categories that people fall in is delusional. Breathtakingly so. Oh, you’re using the VPC now? Wonderful, [here are even more stories](http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx) the other way, courtesy of the NRA. No one has said that CCW holders are some magical group that don’t suffer from the same things that non-ccw holders do, penchants for crime, sufferers of mental illness, etc. It’s just that the evidence shows that as a group CCW holders are less likely to commit violent crimes than non-ccw holders. Or police. I thought this thread was about open carry though, not CCW. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/477 "2014-07-04T15:37:05Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Since May of 2007, 644 people have been killed by ccw permitted people in non-defensive incidents. This is as identified ONLY through media sources, so the true number is higher still. > > [http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm](http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm) > > This includes multiple other MN incidents: > > The ability of you people to convince yourself of the clean categories that people fall in is delusional. Breathtakingly so. Really awesome cite. From that website-front page. > [@](#): > > No comprehensive data exists on non-self defense killings by private citizens legally allowed to carry concealed handguns. Concealed Carry Killers offers examples from May 2007 to the present of such incidents, which are taken from news reports and the limited state data available. These examples are only an unknown fraction of the unreported number of similar incidents that routinely occur across the nation. Portion in red is also in red on the original site. So they’re claiming that numerous instances of death by gunshot go _unreported_? What a steaming pile. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/478 "2014-07-04T16:22:19Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > So they’re claiming that numerous instances of death by gunshot go _unreported_? No, they are saying their content is somewhat cursory, that there are probably more incidents in the records and archives of, for example, county and city LEAs that they did not comb through. “Unreported” means in reference to media (it did not bleed enough to lead). ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/479 "2014-07-04T16:29:46Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > No, they are saying their content is somewhat cursory, that there are probably more incidents in the records and archives of, for example, county and city LEAs that they did not comb through. “Unreported” means in reference to media (it did not bleed enough to lead). If someone is killed by gunshot, it makes the papers. I don’t believe for a second that there’s a significant number of gun deaths that go unreported in the press. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/480 "2014-07-04T16:41:00Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I am probably a bit more paranoid than most, but this little rant makes me look like the pinnacle of sanguine confidence. Kind of reminds me of Leon’s line from _Blade Runner_ about how it is to live in fear. > > I am aware of your situation in passing. It really fails to change much, though. Perhaps phallicity is inappropriate, or (most likely) it varies person-by-person, but carrying remains some sort of coping mechanism. I guess I can count myself lucky, to be able to cope in other ways. How would you like to be accused of being a pedophile? And every time you insisted you weren’t, you were told that that was proof that you’re in denial? Because I’m getting really, really sick of anti’s claiming that gun carriers are “afraid” and “in fear”. Which is ludicrous coming from people who pee their pants and shriek that they’re in mortal danger at the very sight of someone with a holstered sidearm. You seem to be forgetting that gun carriers have no problem with other people carrying too. We don’t phone in panicked “man with a gun” calls to 911, and we don’t insist that banning carry is indispensable to public safety. Who’s the quivering neurotic here? Grow up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423.md?page=25)