# A Bunch of nervous Nellies who don't feel safe eating in a Sonic where they can't carry guns. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 28, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423 "2014-05-28T01:27:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/141 "2014-05-28T23:16:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Suppose the clerk spies the armed man in the parking lot and nervously grabs his own gun under the counter. Then, while this armed individual is walking into the store, he starts to point it (inadvertently, perhaps) at the clerk. The clerk believes this man is about to shoot him, so the clerk shoots first. Is this legal? I think you’re under a mistaken impression here. If you watch the video, you’ll see that each person with a long gun who is exercising open carry is doing so by means of the gun being slung around their shoulder by means of a strap – in other words, the gun is not in their hands. If it were, they would be _brandishing_ the gun, as opposed to simply carrying it. As a general principle, brandishing a firearm is in fact considered a deadly threat. So in the circumstance you describe, the owner would be within his rights to protect himself by shooting. As would a police officer standing next to the owner. But the scenario you envision requires something that none of the open carry people are doing: brandishing their weapons as opposed to simply carrying them. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/142 "2014-05-28T23:17:49Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Walking into my place of business with a firearm in your hands. > > I’m really hoping no-one gets killed when the inevitable happens and a store-owner lights up one of these idiots. I agree. Walking into your place of business with a firearm in my hands is certainly threatening. But not in a holster, or slung over my back. ---
**Author:** ![Bouncer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Bouncer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bouncer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/143 "2014-05-28T23:38:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But the scenario you envision requires something that none of the open carry people are doing: brandishing their weapons as opposed to simply carrying them. Recommend you check the video in the OP. At least one person is cradling their long gun in their arms as a soldier might while out on patrol (he’s wearing a sleeveless t-shirt and a baseball hat). In the still photo at the end, at least two individuals have hands on pistol grips (fingers outside the trigger guard but resting along the edge of the guard) while cradling the barrel in their other arm. I don’t know if that rises to the level of brandishing, but it’s definitely more than just having them slung. Which is the point. In addition quite a few of them have front three-point slings (combat harness) and are carrying the weapons low. Look at the video and tell me if you’d feel comfortable with your child around people you don’t know behaving that way. Regards, -Bouncer- ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/144 "2014-05-29T00:04:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think you’re under a mistaken impression here. If you watch the video, you’ll see that each person with a long gun who is exercising open carry is doing so by means of the gun being slung around their shoulder by means of a strap – in other words, the gun is not in their hands. If it were, they would be _brandishing_ the gun, as opposed to simply carrying it. > > As a general principle, brandishing a firearm is in fact considered a deadly threat. So in the circumstance you describe, the owner would be within his rights to protect himself by shooting. As would a police officer standing next to the owner. > > But the scenario you envision requires something that none of the open carry people are doing: brandishing their weapons as opposed to simply carrying them. My point is that for some people, mundane movements with an AR-15 might look like ‘brandishing’ (for example, the gun might interfere with going through a door and must be moved out of the way), and therefore carrying such weapons into businesses (I believe) is more likely to cause deadly violence than to end an instance of deadly violence. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/145 "2014-05-29T00:21:19Z")
I’ll settle for a nine-inch bowie strapped to my right side. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/146 "2014-05-29T00:49:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by The\_Peyote\_Coyote > As a gun owner, I feel open carry is stupid. > My rationale is this: if I’m a terrorist or a criminal and I see you with a gun, yours is the first ass I would waste. > > How about this - > > If I see someone openly carrying a gun (especially a long gun) my first reaction is WHY - > followed closely by “what sort of person carries such a gun”… > > And given recent history, the first answer into my head is, “the sort of person that might be on their way to shoot up a sorority house”. > > If I happen to have access to a gun at that point - what happens next? I think, bengangmo, there is a good chance you might say: “Drop it or join the Choir Invisible.” I also think that if I were the owner of a small business like a gas station or a tavern and someone walked in with long guns openly, I might decide to whip out a handgun and blow them away on the assumption they were there for another massacre. In some states you could probably get away with that under the Stand Your Ground laws. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/147 "2014-05-29T01:06:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s true. > > But it also illustrates the value in making open carry commonplace. If most parents see open carry being exercised every day, by different people who are simply going about their business, it loses the shock value. But that won’t happen. This is a small group of people, so small that showing up at Sonic was such a strange occurrence that they were asked to leave. The exposure idea only works if there are enough people doing it so that they don’t stand out. Because the thing with exposure therapy is that it’s a two-edged sword. Done correctly, it decreases fear. Botch it, and fear increases. The same technique that fights phobias can create them. Instead of making a loud protest that scares people, these guys need to be trying to convince people to even want to open carry. Or at least convince people that there is a good reason for anyone to want it. I’m not even clear what open carry accomplishes that concealed carry doesn’t. I can see that brandishing the weapon might make you better prepared, but, as you state, that is illegal. And open carry is about intimidating the people who might harm you–doesn’t concealed carry work better, so they don’t know who has a gun? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/148 "2014-05-29T01:06:47Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > This is clearly carrying it a bit far, but as a patron or owner of such an establishment it seems that the likelihood that an open carrying patron will come in and prevent a robbery or mass shooting, is less than the likelihood of a open carrying person coming in a causing a robbery or mass shooting, or even come in with just the intention of buying a burger, but flying into a rage and shooting someone because he has to wait 10 minutes for his fries. As an open carrier you might\* know what my intentions are, but an restaurant manager doesn’t know. Banning guns from his store increases his safety more than you carrying guns into it increases yours. > > - Of course every gun owner “knows” that they are safe responsible and even tempered, but headlines show they can’t all be right. Don’t you know that the background check processes, especially for concealed carry permits, guarantee the soundness, stability and safety of the gun carrier? Good guys with guns stop bad guys with guns, and bad guys with guns a) were always destined to be bad guys with guns and b) must have gotten their guns illegally. Our gun types here readily acknowledge that they practice their quick draw in preparation for the inevitable confrontation they imagine coming. So, in your scenario, the good guy with the gun will clock the other guy who is open carrying. Let’s face it - they will probably be able to identify whether the open carry guy is a bad guy with a gun on sight (he’ll probably be black and shuffling with his pants low on his ass if he’s a bad guy with a gun). So, the good guy with the gun will lay his best steely glare on the interloper and will probably whip out a great opening line. Then, the bad guy will give a particular look, and will make a clear twitch revealing his badness, and the good guy will quick draw him and put him down. It’s pretty straightforward, especially if you practice for it every night in your bedroom. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/149 "2014-05-29T01:31:45Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > And if I were to draw my weapon and injure or kill an innocent bystander, by gosh that would be a true tragedy. This is going to come as a huge shock to you but some members of this Board- and of American society- don’t find your remark to be as amusing as you do. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/150 "2014-05-29T01:36:47Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And **if** open carry is about intimidating the people who might harm you–doesn’t concealed carry work better, so they don’t know who has a gun? Fixed that for me. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/151 "2014-05-29T02:35:28Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > This is going to come as a huge shock to you but some members of this Board- and of American society- don’t find your remark to be as amusing as you do. I don’t think that was supposed to be sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/152 "2014-05-29T02:37:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Really? If it were so commonplace as to be a daily, or hourly occurrence, you don’t think it would fade into static? Honestly - I don’t want it to fade into static. You already have a problem in the US with gun crime, mass shootings, accidental gun deaths and general gun asshattery. That’s just going to get worse if guns “fade into the background”. You’ll get more asshats carrying, those who are less qualified and less trustworthy. Someone carrying three or four guns to a mass murder won’t even be remembered, the angry drunk carrying into a bar won’t be stopped, The Bipolar / schizophrenic / paranoid or whatever having an episode won’t be helped and protected. Not to mention the amount of hero wannabes that will see someone with a gun raising their voice, and then reacting badly. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/153 "2014-05-29T02:43:24Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > I wouldn’t feel any safer if the the officer was carrying a gun as opposed to only carrying non-lethal weapons. That’s due to the fact that they can summon overwhelming force quickly should anything go wrong. The gun isn’t the deciding factor in my threat assessment of the officer. That changes completely for a random citizen. I feel less safe around an officer carrying a gun, I’m much more careful incase I accidently present myself as a threat and provoke the wrong reaction - and that’s around police. What more around some yahoo who has hero fantasies combined with no training? Someone makes the wrong joke / poorly thought out practical joke and your open carry hero shoots a bunch of innocent people dead ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/154 "2014-05-29T02:51:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I am welcome to disregard your fear as irrational, just as I would regard your fear if you panicked at the sight of a voodoo doll. > > . Yeah that’s a really good comparison right there and doesn’t at all speak of your desire ti willingly misstate the position. How many people were accidently killed by a voodoo doll? How many voodoo doll training accidents have you read about? How many robberies were conducted by a voodoo doll? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/155 "2014-05-29T03:05:58Z")
I wonder if any of those asshats are survivalists? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/156 "2014-05-29T04:07:06Z")
Most of them, I’d wager. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/157 "2014-05-29T04:43:12Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Yeah, no. As long as I’ve been in the arms rooms have been a vault near the orderly room. No armed guards. Security is dependent on passive measures. Vault doors. Alarms that bring the MPs and the fact that a bunch of troops live around it. There may be armed guards at the ammo supply point but that is usually out in the ass end of nowhere. I can’t tell you how many times I have walked a guard post with a rifle and no ammo. The fact remains that on military posts the only ones legally armed are the MPs and DoD police. You may want to presume that your experience is what all military bases, and all branches of service, do. You are, in fact, wrong. I was an armed guard. It wasn’t common, but I was. And I’m non-MP. When I was, I received the lecture on the authorized use of deadly force. I don’t know what branch of service you were in but you don’t speak for all branches. Certainly not the Marine Corps. And let me be clear, I do not speak for all of the Corps. Only for my experience while in it. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/158 "2014-05-29T04:56:40Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > This is going to come as a huge shock to you but some members of this Board- and of American society- don’t find your remark to be as amusing as you do. You think I was trying to be amusing? I was not. I was very sincere. Anyone who carries cavalierly and doesn’t consider things like that is an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/159 "2014-05-29T05:02:11Z")
More for **Loach** : and when I was armed it wasn’t at some ammo supply point in the middle of nowhere. Sure, I’ve walked a guard post many times with a rifle and no ammo. Many have, and I’d venture an educated guess that many still do. It doesn’t mean that everyone does, all the time. ---
**Author:** ![flatlined](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb9ed0/32.png) [@flatlined](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flatlined)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423/160 "2014-05-29T05:13:40Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Honestly - I don’t want it to fade into static. > > You already have a problem in the US with gun crime, mass shootings, accidental gun deaths and general gun asshattery. > > That’s just going to get worse if guns “fade into the background”. > > You’ll get more asshats carrying, those who are less qualified and less trustworthy. > > **Someone carrying three or four guns to a mass murder won’t even be remembered, the angry drunk carrying into a bar won’t be stopped** , > > The Bipolar / schizophrenic / paranoid or whatever having an episode won’t be helped and protected. > > **Not to mention the amount of hero wannabes that will see someone with a gun raising their voice, and then reacting badly.** Late to the thread as usual, but as someone who carries concealed and has taken many, MANY gun safety courses, I understand that the rights of the property owner supersedes my right to carry a gun into his/her business. When I see a sign banning guns, I either don’t enter, or I lock my firearm in the car. Usually I don’t enter, but its not because I don’t feel safe in the store…but because if my firearm isn’t locked up in a gun safe, I don’t want it to leave my body. I want to have complete control over my firearms at all times. Someone could break in to my car and steal my gun and then it would be my legal and moral responsibility if it was used to hurt someone. I was in Arizona when [Congresswoman Giffords](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Tucson_shooting) and 18 other people were shot by someone who was later judged to be insane. According to the reports I remember, there were at least 3 people who were armed and they didn’t fire on Loughner because they couldn’t get a clear shot. There are a small number of gun carrying people who use the to swagger around and look cool. There are many more of us who hide our guns because we don’t want to scare anyone, but things happen. I actually did use my weapon to save 3 lives once. I used a shotgun and it was a feral pig who was upset because we had accidently gotten into her territory. I still feel badly about that. I know that I shouldn’t, those critters are dangerous and a real problem, but still. If I ever have to kill a human (oh, please god don’t let that ever happen), I will remember it for the rest of my life and it won’t be a happy memory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-nervous-nellies-who-dont-feel-safe-eating-in-a-sonic-where-they-cant-carry-guns/689423.md?page=9)