But it’s also obvious that these guys are going around looking for exactly this type of confrontation, right? They debate waiting for the police so that they can “interview them”. They’re looking to make a scene. They’re looking to be rejected and kicked out. Why else would they be filming it?
They’re making the statement that they believe they should be able to carry anyplace they want, regardless of the opinion of the owners or managers of the establishment. You yourself just stated that you disagree with that.
As a gun owner, I feel open carry is stupid.
My rationale is this: if I’m a terrorist or a criminal and I see you with a gun, yours is the first ass I would waste.
But you specified a rampage. How about December 9, 2007? The New Life Church in Colorado was attacked by a gunman, who shot four people – two were killed. A church volunteer with a concealed carry permit shot back and injured the gunman, who then killed himself.
January 2002, the Appalachian School of Law: a disgruntled student shot and killed the dean, a professor, and a student before being confronted by two other students with personal firearms who disarmed him.
Saturday, July 11, 2009, Golden Food Market in Richmond, Virginia. The shooter entered the store and opened fire, hitting the owner and then shooting at customers. A friend of the owner was open carrying a pistol and returned fire, critically wounding the assailant and stopping the attack.
July 2012, the Peach House RV Park in Early, Texas. A shooter had killed two people and their two dogs before taking cover and shooting randomly at people. An officer arrived but did not have a clear shot; a gun owner at the RV park made a nearly sixty yard shot with a pistol to stop the shooter.
No, I don’t agree that’s what they’re saying. After all, they left without communicating that sentiment to the manager. They are looking to make a scene, yes, but in order to drive home the point that their conduct is legal and should be unremarkable.
Let me get this straight. A guy walked into a restaurant and shot forty people (several of them children). And you’re saying this is an argument in favor of bringing guns into restaurants.
How about this: I’ve been in one serious car accident in my life, in 1998. I’ve driven hundreds of thousands of miles since then with nary an accident. Why am I wasting all of this money on air bags, seat belts, and crumple zones in my cars?
Otherwise, what’s wrong with patrons refusing to do business with a company that doesn’t allow them to do X when X is something they enjoy doing? It makes even less sense to boycott a restaurant like Chick-Fil-A when their gay marriage opinion doesn’t affect the restaurant experience. I don’t personally get involved with boycotts, but if I liked to open carry a gun, I would eat where the manager allows me to open carry and politely tell the other place why they lost my business.
Maybe I wasn’t clear. I agree that they left without an argument. But it seems obvious to me that their whole point in doing this, and taping it, is to show themselves as being discriminated against; to say that they believe that they should be able to open carry anywhere they want, and if they’re not allowed to do so, it’s discrimination. Calling it discrimination is saying that, even though they can’t carry everywhere, they should be able to.
What you implied was that you would respect the opinion of the owner. They didn’t do that. Yes, they left, but that was just to avoid legal issues, and to gain the moral high ground in their video presentation, but the way they talked showed anything but respect. It seems pretty obvious that they don’t want to have to respect the owner’s opinion.
As far is it being unremarkable, it is anything but that. To many people it is quite remarkable and frightening. Going around frightening people with guns (especially with the spate of incidents we’ve had in recent times) is not some noble fight for freedom, it’s simply going around frightening people with guns. That makes them assholes.
And regardless of how anybody feels about open carry, it’s hard for me to see how anyone would feel safer with these particular fools carrying guns.
That wasn’t some random parishioner who happened to be carrying, she was a volunteer security officer who had been (still was?) a police officer. It was her job to provide security for the church.
Nothing wrong with that at all. But a courteous and intelligent patron, if he knows that the thing he enjoys doing is something that a great many businesses prohibit and that makes a great many other patrons uncomfortable, would contact the company or establishment in advance to find out whether he would be allowed to do X on their premises.
Not just barge onto their premises with a group of people actively engaged in X and then argue with the manager that he needs to do X in order to feel safe on the premises.
Just so we have a complete picture:
[ul][li]What is the average when no one stops the shooter (the perpetrator kills himself, runs out of ammo, simply leaves, etc.).[/li][li]What is the average number when the rescuer was close carrying?[/li][*]What is the average number when the rescuer was open carrying? (Since that is what this thread is about.)[/ul]
Why would God need a security officer? And what’s wrong with providing your own security?
I will say one thing. I think open carry is foolish. it paints a target on you if you do encounter someone up to some homicidal mayhem if he spots you first.
And long guns are much harder to overlook and deploy quickly.
And if it’s slung across your back, you have lost some trigger control.
First of all, any business can restrict firearms if they want as far as i’m concerned.
Second, there is a movement among some gun owners to try to normalize guns in society through exposure therapy, maybe that’s what they are trying to do. I’m not sure that things will work out the way they imagine.
Third, would you be OK with carrying if they were concealed carrying?
There are plenty of places in the suburbs of DC where people used to carry guns openly, its kind of frowned upon now.
This is what I’m talking about. Why do they feel that they openly need to carry long guns? Why do they feel that they need to openly carry any firearm.
Regarding these fools in the video; are the guns loaded with the safety off? If not then it doesn’t seem likely that they could get off the first shot, but they will be the first target. Sure, traveling in a pack like they are might be a deterrent, but are you really going to always have 6 or 8 of your armed buddies with you when you leave home?
On the other hand, if they are loaded and have the safety off, then what happens if some kid behind them decides it’s a toy?
“Exposure therapy”. Wow. That’s not patronizing. :dubious:
Allowing anyone to conceal carry seems questionable to me. I’m really not convinced that the rewards outweigh the risks. And I’m not talking about just the risks to the carrier, presumably he or she is an adult and therefore can make those decisions. I’m talking about the risks to the people around them, which are not non-existent.
But I just don’t see the value of openly carrying, especially like these fools are doing it. What’s gained by this?
No. I think it’s the case that the risks of firearms carrying outweigh the benefits, but I don’t think it’s so obvious that a fifth grader would see it. Hell, I’m probably only 75% convinced.
But what is obvious to even a fifth grader is that the risks of openly carrying firearms into a crowded restaurant against management’s wishes outweigh the benefits of doing so.
Very good points. Also, the NRA magazine regularly relates incidents where armed citizens thwart robberies and home invasions.
When I carry concealed, I am much safer and so is my wife because I can protect her.
Excellent point. Almost all who carry, if a threat develops, are not properly trained to respond to such situations. Fields of fire, friendlies in your line of fire, tactical positioning, etc, and that doesn’t even consider the respondent’s mental state, mental preparation, and the ability to control the flood of adrenaline.
I include myself here. I am not in law enforcement. I have had some training, but if a threat develops, I have a healthy fear of responding inappropriately. And if I were to draw my weapon and injure or kill an innocent bystander, by gosh that would be a true tragedy.
So, if I am carrying, yes my wife and I are much safer, but I also have a healthy fear of the possible negative consequences.