# A bunch of pre-abortion ultrasound bills in the wings - Any traction? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 8, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956 "2009-02-08T20:44:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/1 "2009-02-08T20:44:46Z")
[Re this article it](http://www.delmarvanow.com/article/20090208/NEWS01/90208009/1002)appears that a bushel load of these "look at the baby you are going to kill’ bills are being proposed in various state legislatures. DO these things have any serious traction politically or is it simply grand standing by politicians? > [@](#): > > LINCOLN, Neb. (AP) — Lawmakers in 12 states are considering bills that would offer or require ultrasounds before a woman gets an abortion: > — Maryland: A clinic providing abortions would have to be equipped with an ultrasound machine and offer a woman a chance to see it and listen to the heartbeat. The bill is currently restricted to one county. > > — Virginia: An ultrasound would be required, and the woman would be offered the chance to view the image. > > — Connecticut: A physician or counselor would be required to provide a woman with an ultrasound photograph of the fetus. > > — Indiana: A woman would be required to view an ultrasound at least 18 hours before an abortion, hear the fetal heartbeat and receive a copy of the ultrasound image. > > — Kansas: A doctor would have to tell a woman at least 30 minutes before performing an abortion that she has the right to view an ultrasound image and listen to the heartbeat. > > — Missouri: A doctor or other “qualified professional” would have to offer the woman the chance to see an ultrasound and hear the heartbeat. They’d also have to provide a list of services that perform ultrasounds free. > > — Nebraska: At least 24 hours before performing an abortion, a doctor would be required to perform an ultrasound and display them “so that the woman may choose to view the ultrasound images or not.” A woman could also request a medical description of the image. An alternative bill would require a doctor to tell a woman 24 hours before an abortion that an ultrasound is available. > > — New York: A woman must be offered an ultrasound. > > — North Dakota: An abortion couldn’t be performed before a doctor offered a woman the chance to see an ultrasound. > > — South Carolina: Already has a law requiring that women be given the option of viewing an ultrasound at least one hour before getting an abortion. This year, there’s a bill to make the waiting period 24 hours. > > — Texas: At least two hours before performing an abortion, a doctor would be required to perform an ultrasound and display the images “in a manner that the pregnant woman may view them,” as well as describing the images and letting her hear the heartbeat. > > — Wyoming: Before performing an abortion, a doctor would be required to show a woman the ultrasound images “in a way the pregnant woman may view them,” and provide a medical description of the images. The proposal was defeated by a committee last week. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/2 "2009-02-08T21:10:59Z")
If they have any traction, with the current new power in office it doesn’t look good, though I am hopeful and prayerful, it seems to me that this would be a honest real life presentation which would lead to a informed choice. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/3 "2009-02-08T21:11:17Z")
Do they require also that Americans see photos of the dead and wounded Americans and Iraqis daily, as they happen? Because in that case maybe it would make some sense. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/4 "2009-02-08T21:24:51Z")
What the hell do these assholes think? That women don’t give any serious thought to such a decision, they just nip into the clinic for a quickie between getting their nails done and picking up the dry cleaning? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/5 "2009-02-08T21:31:54Z")
Who’s getting paid to read all these free ultrasounds? ---
**Author:** ![Julius\_Henry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@Julius\_Henry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Julius_Henry)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/6 "2009-02-08T21:41:46Z")
This should lower the rate of abortions among those women who are too stupid to know what an abortion entails. And conservatives complain about liberals wanting to run a “nanny state.” In answer to the OP, I would expect to be seeing many more of these coming soon. As well as the inevitable Supreme Court case. My legal education comes from TV and reading the newspaper, so I could be very wrong here, but I could see this passing constitutional muster. It hardly represents an undue burden on the woman. The only grounds I could see is that it requires clinics to acquire an ultrasound machine, but I would suspect (though I don’t know) that there are many medical items already legally required in most clinics. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/7 "2009-02-08T21:48:13Z")
The part I don’t get is what this is supposed to accomplish. I mean, I’ve seen plenty of ultrasound pictures of fetuses, and if it weren’t for someone pointing things out, I wouldn’t even be able to tell which end is which. I can’t see how showing someone an amorphous green (don’t ask me why it’s always green) blob is expected to change anyone’s mind. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/8 "2009-02-08T22:01:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The part I don’t get is what this is supposed to accomplish. I mean, I’ve seen plenty of ultrasound pictures of fetuses, and if it weren’t for someone pointing things out, I wouldn’t even be able to tell which end is which. I can’t see how showing someone an amorphous green (don’t ask me why it’s always green) blob is expected to change anyone’s mind. When you see it live, you can see the heart beating, which I think is what people think might make the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/9 "2009-02-08T22:06:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The part I don’t get is what this is supposed to accomplish. I mean, I’ve seen plenty of ultrasound pictures of fetuses, and if it weren’t for someone pointing things out, I wouldn’t even be able to tell which end is which. I can’t see how showing someone an amorphous green (don’t ask me why it’s always green) blob is expected to change anyone’s mind. That’s what I don’t get either. My reaction to my daughter’s ultrasound - the child I had tried to conceive for three years and was dearly wanted was “ugh! get that the hell out of me!” It was alien. I certainly wasn’t one of those people who showed off ultrasound pictures. Now, her level three ultrasound at seven and a half months was different, there she looked like a baby. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/10 "2009-02-08T22:07:18Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The part I don’t get is what this is supposed to accomplish. I mean, I’ve seen plenty of ultrasound pictures of fetuses, and if it weren’t for someone pointing things out, I wouldn’t even be able to tell which end is which. I can’t see how showing someone an amorphous green (don’t ask me why it’s always green) blob is expected to change anyone’s mind. It’s a blatant appeal to emotion. I’m sure a small number of women could be persuaded by it, but at the expense of patronizing and inconveniencing the other 99%. Most of them aren’t retarded and know exactly what an abortion entails. What’s the point, other than an anti-abortion agenda? None. Nothing about it “informs” the woman of anything meaningful, other than “look at the pretty fetus… with a BEATING HEART!” I don’t know what’s so special about a beating heart that confers any moral status… cows and chickens have beating hearts too, doesn’t stop us from slaughtering them en masse. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/11 "2009-02-08T22:28:02Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > What’s the point, other than an anti-abortion agenda? None. Nothing about it “informs” the woman of anything meaningful, other than “look at the pretty fetus… with a BEATING HEART!” I don’t know what’s so special about a beating heart that confers any moral status… cows and chickens have beating hearts too, doesn’t stop us from slaughtering them en masse. I think the issue is since the human status is argued the woman should be presented the reasonably best information on her own child. It’s a lot different when you see someone else child compared to yours. & Cows and chickens are not humans. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/12 "2009-02-08T22:32:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I think the issue is since the human status is argued the woman should be presented the reasonably best information on her own child. It’s a lot different when you see someone else child compared to yours. > > & Cows and chickens are not humans. Tell that to the families of the dead Iraqis. I assume you’d support **Sailor** ’s addition to the bill yea? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/13 "2009-02-08T22:48:55Z")
Because we all want a bunch of politicians in our exam rooms telling us and the doctor what we are supposed to do in all our health decisions. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/14 "2009-02-08T23:07:16Z")
They do an ultrasound before an abortion regardless, you know. The doctor needs to know how far along you are, and an ultrasound is the best way to determine that. **elucidator** , it can’t possibly be surprising to you that many anti-abortion people (like many people in general) assume that everyone would think like they do, if they just knew better. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/15 "2009-02-08T23:11:21Z")
Not an expert on medical ethics, but isn’t it pretty bloody basic that a patient has the right to refuse treatment - particularly unnecessary treatment? Any other procedures you’d like to make mandatory, **kanicbird**? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/16 "2009-02-08T23:17:36Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s a blatant appeal to emotion. I’m sure a small number of women could be persuaded by it, but at the expense of patronizing and inconveniencing the other 99%. Most of them aren’t retarded and know exactly what an abortion entails. > > What’s the point, other than an anti-abortion agenda? None. Nothing about it “informs” the woman of anything meaningful, other than “look at the pretty fetus… with a BEATING HEART!” I don’t know what’s so special about a beating heart that confers any moral status… cows and chickens have beating hearts too, doesn’t stop us from slaughtering them en masse. If that were the real intention, it would be better served by having a stock selection of in utero photos at various ages, and showing the woman a picture of one at about the same stage of development. Unlike ultrasounds, photographs of fetuses really do look like fetuses, and further do look sort of like born babies, so there’d probably be a lot more sympathy for them. On thinking about it, though, I’m beginning to suspect that that isn’t the purpose of these bills. I’ve a hunch that the legislators proposing these bills are expecting them to get voted down, whereupon they can use that vote to stir up voters against the legislators who opposed it. See, for instance, the flak Obama caught over the Illinois “born alive” bill, which he voted against because there was already a law on the books that said the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/17 "2009-02-08T23:27:10Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > They do an ultrasound before an abortion regardless, you know. The doctor needs to know how far along you are, and an ultrasound is the best way to determine that. I didn’t know that, actually, but it makes sense. So the laws are simply of the “rub the sinners’ noses in it” variety. Doesn’t do much to endear me to the idea. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/18 "2009-02-08T23:46:34Z")
> [@Spiny\_Norman](#): > > Not an expert on medical ethics, but isn’t it pretty bloody basic that a patient has the right to refuse treatment - particularly unnecessary treatment? I suppose, but couldn’t the clinic then refuse the abortion, if this ultrasound were made a precondition and was declined by the patient? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/19 "2009-02-08T23:54:13Z")
> [@Spiny\_Norman](#): > > Not an expert on medical ethics, but isn’t it pretty bloody basic that a patient has the right to refuse treatment - particularly unnecessary treatment? > > Any other procedures you’d like to make mandatory, **kanicbird**? I’m not sure it is a medical procedure, are metal detectors at airports medical procedures? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956/20 "2009-02-08T23:56:34Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Tell that to the families of the dead Iraqis. I assume you’d support **Sailor** ’s addition to the bill yea? Sort of irrelevant to this discussion unless those families are considering a abortion in the US. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-bunch-of-pre-abortion-ultrasound-bills-in-the-wings-any-traction/484956.md?page=2)