A bunch of questions about the zoo as a beneficial institution

holdmytail wrote:

:confused: Have you actually checked National Zoo’s website? Especially here? As part of the Smithsonian Institute they’re actually pretty big into the conservation thing. For example, they’re one of the major institutions involved in captive-breeding and reintroduction of golden lion tamarins. National Zoo certainly has much better funding than a lot of other institutions in the US and a good chunk of that funding goes to things other than the basic running of the zoo.

In re: your general questions about breeding of endangered/threatened or not endangered/threatened animals, I have a few general comments. Most major zoological institutions in the US are members of the American Zoo and Aquarium Association (AZA) which also sponsors programs/groups that oversee the breeding and transferring of multiple species of interest, known as Taxon Advisory Groups. Most TAGs have also set up Species Survival Plans, Population Management Plans, and Studbooks that outline the ultimate goals of breeding of a particular species and keep track of who is related to whom. The studbook keeper for those species has say over who should be bred and which animals should go where. Their goals include maintaining the genetic diversity of the captive populations and making sure no additional animals need be collected from the wild to meet the needs of zoos.

Of course, your next question would probably be “who cares what the zoos need”? Keep in mind that most zoos and aquariums are also major economic contributors to their locales because, as Zagadka said, we like to look at animals. And seeing them on the TV just is not the same. People will pay to come see animals (though I know admission National Zoo itself is free, people who are there still spend $$ on other things). I work at the National Aquarium in Baltimore, which is the largest tourist attraction in Maryland. The institution was built to help bring in tourism $$, which is a big deal in Baltimore since the city is generally economically-depressed. Better that people who want to see animals come to an AZA-accredited institution than to a random, non-accredited zoo that only has to worry about USDA guidelines (which are no where near as strict as the requirements for AZA-accreditation and only apply to mammals). And actually seeing an animal in real life has a huge impact on people, especially children. It is hoped that this will lead people to a greater appreciation of the animals which, in turn, will motivate them to do what they can outside of going to the zoo or aquarium to improve conditions for other animals in the wild. Our dolphin show has a major conservation education component to it to try and help folks make the connection between, among other things, “cool animals we should protect” and “I should not throw my trash in the street/ocean”.

Zoos and aquariums can also take some of the $$ they bring in to fund or support conservation and education programs locally. Our conservation department hosts a number of programs geared to restoring local wetlands. We also raise money to buy and preserve rain forest and support Project Piaba.

:rolleyes: Have you actually ever watched a nature show? Do you know how most animals live and die?? While there are certainly problems with some species and individuals in zoos/aquariums due to husbandry or medical problems, many animals (especially prey species) will live longer and die with less suffering in captivity than in the wild. Let’s get rid of this over-emotional anthropomorphizing of animals and look at things rationally. For one thing, they have access to veterinary care for disease outbreaks or injuries (a solid program of veterinary care is essential for USDA permits and AZA accreditation). In the wild, injured animals get infections and may either become easy prey for predators or, if they’re predators themselves, starve because they can no longer hunt effectively. If an animal in a zoo or aquarium does have a problem too serious to treat they will be humanely euthanized instead of being allowed to suffer until they die. Animals also are fed regularly and often don’t have to worry about predators (I say “often” because we do occasionally have predation in our mixed-species enclosures, but this is rarely true in the case of anything other than fish and invertebrates). And, of course, they aren’t being poached or hunted by people.

Most zoos and aquariums work very hard to meet the social needs of their animals and are careful when new animals are introduced into an existing social group. Environmental enrichment is also very important, though some places have been slower than others to pick up on this. EE works to give animals ways to express their natural behaviors (hunting, foraging, hiding, etc) within their enclosures and is the focus of groups such as this one. Enrichment is required by the USDA for all captive primates and by the AZA for many other mammal and bird species. Our manager of animal programs also oversees enrichment and training with reptiles, fish (including sharks), and some invertebrates (particularly the octopus). I helped co-author a research paper done here regarding the ability of enrichment to decrease stereotypic behavior in our seal collection. So the whole “boredom” issue is being addressed because it’s better both for the animals and for the public who want to see them doing natural things.

I think other posters have already pointed out that many modern zoos and aquariums focus on habitat design that are more natural than the old concrete cages and iron bars. I’ve been to the Columbus Zoo, the Cincinnatti Zoo, the North Carolina Zoo, Salisbury Zoo (in Maryland’s Eastern Shore), Audubon Zoo (New Orleans), New England Aquarium, North Carolina Aquarium, Aquarium of the Americas (New Orleans), and Mystic Aquarium to name a few, and that old motif is now the exception, at least among AZA-member institutions. Keep in mind that your perception of enclosure size (being “too small”) may not match what the animals really need/prefer. Some animals like it cozy and are stressed by habitats that are too open. And, of course, there’s always the balance between animal needs and visitor’s ability to see animals. But not everything in a zoo or aquarium’s collection is out on display (we have one of the largest collection of poison dart frogs in the world; the vast majority are behind-the-scenes) and animals in the back-up are free to have as complicated or as bare an enclosure as they need. Older zoos, like National Zoo and the Baltimore Zoo, update their facilities gradually as money and time permit.

So, in summary: while it’s ultimately better for species to maintain their presence in their natural habitats (because that’s what they’re adapted to and all play a vital role in the ecosystem), it’s not true that captive populations in zoos are all in the animal equivalent of the gulag, pining away for their lost freedom. Zoos and aquariums exist because a) people want to see animals, especially exotic ones, b)they provide economic stimulus (see a), c) they serve as hubs for animal and habitat conservation programs by providing expertise and resources, d) they hold populations of species that may be threatened or endangered in the wild so that these animals do not disappear forever. Even if they ultimately exist only in captivity, it’s better than them not existing at all.

Well, there are geo-political complications to that.

The breeding programs are HERE - first world wealthy countries

The poachers are THERE - third world poor countries

You figure out how to bring more conservation money in to fight poachers in southeast asia or central Africa. Good luck.

Zoo’s are good for a myriad of reasons. Children often see animals that they couldn’t see otherwise, even on cable (except for some reason, the Knoxville zoo has cows. As in moo. We had those across the street from my house as well. Also in Knoxville. Wasted space in my opinion). It encourages them to be interested in science and biology. Zoos bring in money for cities that build nice ones, and zoo’s often if not always donate to conservation programs. The problem with sanctuaries and the like is that many places don’t have a thousand or more acres to build millions of dollars of Serengeti plains and polar ice floes. Also you run into the problem in this country of people saying “I love the zoo, but why do the lions have to be so damn far away from the penguins”. They would want close proximity, or Segway’s or something. That wouldn’t stop a true altruist, but many dollars go into designing the “flow” of a zoo (or feng shui possibly). Having a large population of captive tigers is beneficial, because if you don’t, then once the poachers kill all the wild ones, the gene pool is too small if you’ve only got 4. Interbreeding is not cool, thats why to mate, zoos often trade critters with other places to increase genetic diversity. Then you are able to populate the wild more easily. It has (sort of) worked for the California Condor. Also, can you imagine a world without zoos?

I have serious problems with any place that cages and exploits animals for profit.

OTTOMH, I can’t remember ever being to a zoo that fits that description.

I grew up in northern Virginia and have been to the national zoo many times. I remember that many of the environments (the tigers come to mind) had no bars.

The Philadelphia, doesn’t really compare to the National Zoo. Still, there were plenty of indications that the zoo was seriously concerned with education and conservation.

While visiting my folks in Florida, Mom informed me that she had bought tickets to something called Flamingo Gardens. I tried to get out of it and couldn’t. I expected the McDisneyfication of nature, and exhibits that showed that nature was best sanitized and shrinkwrapped for your convenience.

I could not have been more wrong. The place was huge. Any animal which could safely and legally roam free was allowed to do so. Most of the place is closed to everybody except employees. The tram ride revealed not animals performing on cue, but a genuine and passionate attempt to teach visitors that nature is most beautiful when we leave it alone. The only show involved exhibitting crippled birds (Flamingo Gardens is also an animal rescue operation. Those animals that they could heal were released after proper treatment). These birds did no tricks. Each served as a living example of things not to do. Chatting with the employees revealed that several felt it was their sacred duty (literally) to preserve nature and teach the visitors to do the same.

OTOH Last year mom got tickets to Billy’s Gator Safari. This place was everything I feared. You want to find out just how tightly you can pack alligators into cages? This is the place for you. You want to see an employee throwing food to an uncaged aligator(thus teaching it to associate humans with food, and a likely attack in the future) so the tourists can get good pictures? Go to Billy’s. You want to see a place that makes no real attempt at conservation, or education, just showing the tourists what they want? Go to Billy’s. You want to see a place that’s on Seminole land but has a shop stocked almost entirely with items from the tribes of the deserts of the SouthWest, or the forests of the Pacific northwest? Go to Billy’s. Want to teach your kids that the majestic Everglades are best experienced in a gas guzzling, ear splitting airboat? Go to Billy’s. In short, if you want to see the personification of every crime humanity has ever commited against nature (and a few we commited against other humans), go to Billy’s.
We need the zoos and the Flamingo Gardens very badly. They educate. They do their best to keep species from extinction.

The many Billy’s of America, on the other hand, are pure, unadulterated evil. They are a suppurating wound that must be cleansed. I prefer the expedient of feeding Billy to the gators, but am open to other suggestions.

Yea, I’ve been to the website but for the tons of animals they have in the zoo, there’s not much detail on how the zoo uses them to restore wild populations (except ferrets and tamarins).

I’m sure the zoo is regulated and mostly has the best of intentions but I’ve just felt that in some areas things don’t make sense so I wanted an explanation because I want to be able to visit the zoo again guilt-free. Things that don’t make sense are, as I’ve mentioned, animals who could be at sanctuaries kept at zoo, breeding of non-endangered species, and performing animals. There’s the whole education argument but I feel like it’s contradictory and is at the expense of the animals’ well being. It’s like “We must restore these wild animals to the wild and we’re working on it but meanwhile they’re fine living in our small enclosures and don’t require better environments and you may stare at them like butteflies on pins and watch some do cool tricks because if they can do tricks we should try to save them.”

Yea I can maybe see the whole “cool animals we should protect” message but do people really think of conservation when they watch the dolphins do tricks and is this a good way to promote conservation (Let’s save them because they can do cool tricks)? Also, is it just me or are the National Zoo dolphin tanks way too small for animals that travel many miles a day and dive to great depths in nature? They just keep circling like tigers in concrete/bar cages and there’s no darker privacy area. Why are they not fed live fish so that they can have fun hunting them down?

I’ve watched plenty of nature shows and it’s rough out there but is a long, boring life in captivity better than a shorter life in the wild? I don’t think so. That’s why nobody in their right mind would rescue squirrels from the woods. And if poaching is a problem, putting the animals in zoos won’t solve it. Protecting the lands would help as would replenishing the population by breeding already captive animals or by some other means after the lands are secured. Why breed in zoos when there’s nowhere to release to? Shouldn’t making room be the first priority?

Enrichment is good but could it be better say at a bigger, less stressful, more varied facility?

My perception of what’s too small is based on how much an animal would cover every day in the wild. Obviously way more room then at the zoo. Cozyness wouldn’t be a problem in a large enclosure as long as animals are provided with a place to hide and rest. As for the balance between animal needs and visitors’ ability to see the animals, doesn’t the former outweigh the latter significantly?

Maybe so the kids can go “Aaw cowsies, I shouldn’t eat them”. Yea, I’m kidding, it’s pretty pointless if cows live in your area anyway. We have farm animals at the National Zoo too but I think it’s alright because that’s one of the best places they could be. Better than at the factory farm.

That’s a good point. But if we can’t provide roomy facilities for non-endangered wild animals, why keep them? I think if it’s necessary to keep endangered animals that are involved in breeding programs (or will be in the near future) at traditional zoos then we should do that but it seems unnecessary to keep animals in inferior facilities when there is room at a sanctuary.

We already have a large population of captive tigers first of all and it hasn’t hepled the wild tigers much because there are still poachers and developers out on the tiger lands.

It worked for the CA Condor because we actually started releasing them and the lands are protected.

And yes, I can imagine a world without zoos. I mean if we closed all the zoos and got rid of all the animals/programs it would suck for the world big time. If we gradually stopped displaying non-endangered animals (unless it’s a rescue), moved to conservation only through sanctuaries/free-range zoos, and protected lands that would be wonderful but we’d have to be willing to give up quite a bit of land for the two latter changes.

I doubt zoos mean harm to animals (except those little roadside things like that Billy place). I was just thinking that some put more emphasis on entertainment for visitors than animal well-being and real conservation education.

Those Flamingo Gardens sound great by the way, I want to go!

I think the nearest reserve or safari-style zoo to you is the Bronx Zoo in NYC. You can take a train to NYC/Penn Station and the subway from there if you’re interested.

The animals live together in large habitats (The first habitat – African Plains – was opened in 1941 . You should check it out.

http://www.bronxzoo.com/bz-about_the_zoo

The Bronx Zoo was instrumental in saving the American bison from extinction and subsequently releasing them back into the wild. Conservation efforts began in 1905 when fewer than 1,000 bison remained in the wild. In 1907 the first Zoo-bred bison were released to a refuge in Oklahoma. Today the American bison population numbers ~30,000.

I was going to say ‘the horrible thing is’, but it’s only one of the many horrible things. The Everglades are surrounded by businesses just like Billy’s. Nor are these tiny mom and pop operations. They are large operations with annual profits in the millions.

Then, there are the Sea worlds.

Though kinder to their animals (After all, attempting to swim with an orca who doesn’t like you is generally fatal), they exist primarily to entertain and to teach tourists that nature is best experienced in concrete buildings. I don’t mind the tricks (many animals rather enjoy performing). I’m bothered by the fact that these animals have been deprived of their freedom so that people can make money.

Ditto, I’d never go to Sea World because it’s pretty much like going to an animal circus. Sometimes I wonder how those continue to exist in modern society because there are no good sides to this business whatsoever. Just ask Roy’s tiger. Also those places that cart around declawed tiger cubs for photoshoots…Sick.

Far away but nice! Maybe I’ll take a trip up there sometime.

Re Sigfried And Roy

There have been several threads on the incident. From everything I’ve read, seen or heard about them, Sigfried and Roy are as far from abusive to animals as you can get. When they travel, they must call home on speaker phone to convince the tigers that they are home. Othewise, the tigers won’t eat. Do they exploit animals for profit? Absolutely. Do they mistreat them? I can’t believe that they would. Remember that even as Roy was being rushed to the hospital, he attempted to explain that the incident was not mantecore’s fault- and prevent the tiger from being put down.

Oh I’m sure they love their tigers very much and spoil them and give them lots of tiger treats but tigers aren’t dogs. They’re wild animals, they are unpredictable, and they should not be carted around for entertainment purposes. It is stressful for tigers to tour in small cages and to perform, it is dangerous for the performers and the public, and it teaches kids that tigers are just big plush toys for us to play with. They should just retire and let the tigers live out their lives on their big grassy property.