# A business plan that is either rapacious or brilliant or both... **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 5, 2010, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773 "2010-02-05T07:47:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/21 "2010-02-05T19:16:08Z")
A note: When I reread my OP, it seems like I may be complaining about the store taking advantage of poor, unsuspecting teens, but I’m not, at least not on an individual basis. It just strikes me as a really bizarre setup. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/22 "2010-02-05T19:22:19Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > How is that not considered blackmail? of course i would not pay it, i would in fact sue them. It’s not blackmail, it’s extortion, but it’s legal extortion. The law says that they may collect up to $200 in statutory civil penalties. So you would lose. Plus, it’s going to cost you more than $200 to file your suit, anyways. Blackmail is such an ugly word, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/23 "2010-02-05T19:26:46Z")
For those suggesting the business model (if that’s what this is) would not work because you wouldn’t pay the fine, you are forgetting one thing: many folks _would_ pay it. Even if the store collects on just one-in-five, that ain’t a bad profit. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/24 "2010-02-05T19:53:16Z")
The store incurs certain expenses in dealing with the shoplifters as well. They have to have people on the clock watching out for and aprehending the miscreants, determining that they are indeed in posession of stolen goods, waiting on the cops and then going through the process of filling out a stolen property report and filing charges, etc. There may even be times when they have to appear in court and testify. All this results in expense to the merchant, and is probably why the $200 above stolen property value is provided for by law. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/25 "2010-02-05T22:06:59Z")
That is how most stores do it. It seems like a realistic fee to me. Claire’s and Icing just have the minimum-wage clerk watch for shoplifters, and then make the shoplifter sit and wait for the police, who fill out the police report. The clerk also fills out a short report. There are certainly costs involved for them, but they’ve got it down to a pretty good system. I’m not sure if they always file a police report in order to collect their fine; I think so. People almost never choose to go to court because it costs more than the diversion, and after diversion the kid will have no criminal record. If they go to court there’s a very good chance they’ll lose, so it’s not worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/26 "2010-02-05T23:01:08Z")
> [@howye](#): > > Who can “charge” the kid? Charge them with shoplifting? Charge them the cost of the material? > > Sue who for 5x more of what? What civil theory is the store looking to recover under, when they caught the shoplifter and recovered their merchandise? > > Unless the kid had a history of prior arrests, I would think a letter sent days or weeks after the incident purporting to require a cash payment to the store in consideration for not pressing charges would not warrant to much follow up by law enforcement. > > If my little princess did shoplift, she would be far more interested in talking to the police than me. At the same time, I would be thrilled to receive one of these letters. It would give me a nice laugh at a time I would otherwise be worried about my child. Charge the kid criminally. Sue you for 5X what they are asking for. The “fine” is an out-of-court settlement. Slow, much?:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/27 "2010-02-05T23:05:15Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > The law says that they may collect up to $200 in statutory civil penalties. Can you point us to the law? ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/28 "2010-02-05T23:05:31Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Absent the threat of criminal charges, how do they enforce the fine? Does simply posting a notice create a liability? Can I fine people for littering in my yard, for example, if I post a notice? Oh, they tell them they WILL file charges if they don’t pay. But what they don’t tell people is that they often will file charges if they DO pay. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/29 "2010-02-05T23:07:06Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Charge the kid criminally. > > Sue you for 5X what they are asking for. Why not sue for 5 million times what they are asking for? Generally, absent pain, suffering, or punishment, your damages are limited to putting you in the position you were in before the act occurred. What damages has a store suffered when a $6 item has been stolen? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/30 "2010-02-05T23:09:49Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > Oh, they tell them they WILL file charges if they don’t pay. But what they don’t tell people is that they often will file charges if they DO pay. Then I am confused by this statement of yours : > [@](#): > > And the civil demand is wholly separate from criminal or delinquency charges. How can it be separate if it is contingent upon it? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/31 "2010-02-05T23:13:31Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Why not sue for 5 million times what they are asking for? > Generally, absent pain, suffering, or punishment, your damages are limited to putting you in the position you were in before the act occurred. What damages has a store suffered when a $6 item has been stolen? Where did the “million” thing creep in?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/32 "2010-02-05T23:17:31Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Where did the “million” thing creep in?😕 It was hyperbole. Where did you get the 5X? Why do you think quintuple damages are justified when the simple remedy is to have the property returned, or to receive it’s value in money? Have you ever heard of a shoplifter being forced to pay back five times what was stolen? ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/33 "2010-02-05T23:27:26Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Charge the kid criminally. > > Sue you for 5X what they are asking for. > > The “fine” is an out-of-court settlement. > > Slow, much?:smack: You’re in MPSIMS. Dial it back. ---
**Author:** ![cuberdon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/45deac/32.png) [@cuberdon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuberdon)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/34 "2010-02-05T23:36:27Z")
Without offering an opinion, there appears to be a legal basis for these demands: > **[Civil recovery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Recovery_Demands_%28Shoplifting%29)** > > Civil recovery is the method in some legal systems employed to recover the proceeds of crime, instead of, or in addition to, criminal court proceedings. > Many retailers, or agents acting on their behalf, utilize civil recovery to recover the value of property (including intellectual property) obtained through unlawful conduct (i.e. theft, burglary, larceny, fraud etc.). In these cases, police action is not a prerequisite to the civil demand for damages by the retailer. The civil demand can be, a... ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/35 "2010-02-06T00:28:27Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Then I am confused by this statement of yours : How can it be separate if it is contingent upon it? It is in no way contingent upon it. They will make the shoplifters think it is, but it really isn’t. They can choose to file charges and NOT send the civil demand (although they never do), and they can choose to just send the civil demand (which may happen, although I obviously never see it if it does). What they do very frequently is issue the civil demand and still file charges even if it’s paid–they will wait until they have a few to file and then send their court liason down to the courthouse to file them in bulk. People will get a summons in the mail a couple months after the incident took place. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/36 "2010-02-06T00:33:10Z")
> [@LouiseE](#): > > Without offering an opinion, there appears to be a legal basis for these demands: > > [Civil recovery - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Recovery_Demands_%28Shoplifting%29) Thank you; good cite. I’m not going to look up the statutes, as they’re different in every state. In my state they can fine you $200 over. And it’s exactly as Starving Artist wrote, it’s to offset the costs incurred by the store. I don’t have a problem with that, and if you want to argue that it’s wrong, you’ll have to take it up with your state representatives, because that’s the law. My household member was told many times about this, as I work in youth diversion. Didn’t do any good once she saw the glitter! ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2010, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/37 "2010-02-06T00:47:47Z")
The Wikipedia entry links to a [Wall Street Journal article](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120347031996578719.html) about this very thing. > [@](#): > > The chain’s [Lord & Taylor] letters to suspected shoplifters are sent out by a Florida law firm called Palmer Reifler & Associates, which also handles the task for four dozen other clients, from [Wal-Mart Stores](http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=WMT) Inc. to [Walgreen](http://online.wsj.com/public/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=WAG) Co., keeping 13% to 30% of what it collects. A partner at the law firm has said that it sends out about 1.2 million civil-recovery demand letters a year[…] That’s a lot of money. This is the same firm that Claire’s uses, too. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/38 "2010-02-08T22:53:56Z")
Am I the only one who thinks that, if I’m so poor as to need to steal a $6 trinket, I’m probably not going to have the money to pay the fine? ---
**Author:** ![Leiko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Leiko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leiko)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2010, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773/39 "2010-02-09T00:39:21Z")
**BigT** , most of the shoplifters I knew in middle school definitely had the $6- they just had questionable morals. I stopped hanging out with them pretty quickly, since I was raised by an anxious mother who wouldn’t let me into Claire’s if I didn’t have money in my pocket. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-business-plan-that-is-either-rapacious-or-brilliant-or-both/527773.md?page=1)