# A canoe, a parachute, a waterfall **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 9, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304 "2012-03-09T18:43:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bumbershoot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bumbershoot/32/3428_2.png) [@Bumbershoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bumbershoot)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/41 "2012-03-12T00:17:02Z")
Here are a couple of videos to illustrate how fast a parachute can open: In [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCD0TExFBg8) the first jumper deploys at 0:58 and has an open canopy at 1:01. The second jumper deploys at 1:07 and has an open canopy at 1:10. In [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP5Wal2Dpss&feature=related) the jumper deploys at 0:38 and has an open canopy by 0:41. Now imagine the canoeist throws his pilot chute into a strong head wind as the canoe starts to go over the edge. The canopy would be coming out as the canoe is tipping. It could conceivably inflate and carry him away from the cascade within seconds. It’s possible is all I’m saying. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/42 "2012-03-12T00:28:25Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Do you have any links? Because the only ones I can find on YouTube (which I have linked to) show no such thing. Again, even a Jet Ski only gets several feet out, and a few feet of center of gravity out of a kayak built for speed isn’t even getting close to the end of the thing. And the end needs to clear the water falling down. Okay, it depends on what you define as “arc out”. I never said they “shoot out” as kayaker put it. But they are not buried in the “water center of mass of the falls” either, because otherwise you would’t see them. An experienced chutist has noted its not that hard to get a chute inflate. How clear of a cliff do you think a guy is going to be when he jumps off it with it laying on the ground at the top of the cliff? (the hundred foot cliff :eek: example). Water mist has got to be a bit more forgiving than rock. Keep in mind any kind of chute that manages to inflate that is designed to provide some lift to drag (and IS pointed in right direction) will quickly drive the whole contraption AWAY from the falls. Now if you can tell me your typical ram air chute provides 30 feet per second of forward speed for every 10 feet per second of decent but your typical large waterfall has a horizontal indraft of 15 feet per second…then yeah there are going to be problems (rough number sorta made up) because the air is gonna suck you in faster than you can fly out. But I’d WAG that folks are overestimating how much horizontal indraft a waterfall has. And of course that would probably be a strong function of how much water is going over the falls. A paddled boat could either be shooting over Niagra Falls or a mere trickle by comparision (which would have virtually no “in draft”). Back to the OP. Given the importance of the “chute inflating” and it being pointed in the right direction when it does so, something more like those triangular hanglider thingys would probably be better. And back the OP’s premise in general? Are you going to MacGyver something like this the first time on the fly and have it work? Very likey not IMO. Could you approach this problem like a group of engineers, experts, stunt people, and fighter pilot types would and work up a system that has a decent chance of working? I think so. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/43 "2012-03-12T01:28:27Z")
> [@Bumbershoot](#): > > … > Now imagine the canoeist throws his pilot chute into a strong head wind as the canoe starts to go over the edge. The canopy would be coming out as the canoe is tipping. It could conceivably inflate and carry him away from the cascade within seconds. It’s possible is all I’m saying. Yup. Seconds. Which by that link is maybe 20 or so feet from where they deploy the pilot chute to where the full chute is inflated. During that time the canoe is now pointed straight down at most a few inches from the bulk of the water coming down adjacent to it. IF it is designed to hold the boat horizontal then it will flip one end into the water flow as it levels it out during inflation. If not, well, maybe, there could be some tricky handling to make it possible. And in defense of the concept I’ve at least found [video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaAdBVJP6hQ) of BASE jumpers jumping next to a waterfall and pulling it off. But again, they seem to be at least ten feet away from the water when they deploy, and another BASE jumper has [this caution](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaAdBVJP6hQ) > [@](#): > > Waterfalls are a fluid mass that moves relative to / through a mass of air (another fluid). > > Whilst the water is moving down under the force of gravity, the air mass must be displaced somwhere. This has a number of affects. Firstly, a component of the displaced air mass is taken down with the waterfall. That is one of the reasons why you see lots of bubbles under the waterfall. The volume and speed of the water/air fall, coupled with friction, forces air adjacent to the water to be literally sucked down as well. In laymans terms, this creates a downdraft adjacent to the waterfall that increases in speed and intensity as you get lower (until the water reaches terminal velocity of course - the water then spreads around a bit more and falls at the same rate and begins to have less affect) - i.e. the bottom of a 250m waterfall with a large volume of water is probably more dangerous than the bottom of a 1000m waterfall with the equivalent volume. > > Another thing that happens is that from the centre of the waterfall, to an area several tens of metres away that is not affected by the waterfall, there are changing air flow patterns. > > The centre of the waterfall is straight down. Given its higher density than the air surrounding it, it falls with great speed. Immediately adjacent to the waterfall you will still have strong downdraft and some water molecules floating around as they are not subjected as much to the falling mass. Here is where it gets interesting. We are about to transition from down to no movement. It is almost like a wind shear but it is complicated with eddies and turbulence from the downdraft and waterfall. i.e this is where the air flow becomes less predictable to the naked untrained eye (reasonably predictable to anyone familiar with chaos theory). Basically, you will get a combination of downdrafts, sidedrafts, updrafts, etc. As you move further out, the affects becomes less in terms of force but the motion probably occurs in greater distances. What I mean by this is that radius of the eddies next to the waterfall are smaller but more noticeable than further out. > > Finally, you are in clear air. > > Hence, if you BASE jump next to a waterfall, the following things will probably happen: > > If you throw a p/c in the downdraft right next to the waterfall, it may well keep falling with you and never create enough drag to pull your canopy out. IF you either fly into or freefall into the waterfall, you have minimal chance of landing an inflated canopy (this problem is greater for high volume/flow rate falls). These results will be fairly predictable. > > If you deploy or fly a few metres out, you will have less predictability. You might get sucked down, you might open quickly, you might? ? ? ? ? ---
**Author:** ![Bumbershoot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bumbershoot/32/3428_2.png) [@Bumbershoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bumbershoot)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/44 "2012-03-12T01:51:17Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yup. Seconds. Which by that link is maybe 20 or so feet from where they deploy the pilot chute to where the full chute is inflated. During that time the canoe is now pointed straight down at most a few inches from the bulk of the water coming down adjacent to it. IF it is designed to hold the boat horizontal then it will flip one end into the water flow as it levels it out during inflation. If not, well, maybe, there could be some tricky handling to make it possible. And in defense of the concept I’ve at least found [video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaAdBVJP6hQ) of BASE jumpers jumping next to a waterfall and pulling it off. But again, they seem to be at least ten feet away from the water when they deploy, and another BASE jumper has [this caution](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaAdBVJP6hQ) The canoeist has an advantage over the BASE jumper because he has forward speed plus a hypothetical head wind so he can deploy before he is next to the cascade. Way upthread I said in real life it might work once in a thousand tries but probably not. So you agree that it’s remotely possible, or do you still say “No, not possible”? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/45 "2012-03-12T02:05:54Z")
"If you throw a p/c in the downdraft right next to the waterfall, it may well keep falling with you and never create enough drag to pull your canopy out. " This part ain’t quite right. Even if you jump into a serious downdraft you will still eventually gain terminal airspeed in relation to that particular airmass. It can not be any other way. Well, I guess it could be if that airmass can continue to accelerate at 1/2 gt^2 indefinitely (which ain’t really real world) The main complication is that the downdraft means you need more height to do your stunt than you would otherwise. So, you need to allow for it but a downdraft is not a dealbreaker. And, again, how much water is going over the falls is IMO going to make a BIG difference in this whole downdraft aspect. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/46 "2012-03-12T02:13:20Z")
> [@Bumbershoot](#): > > . > > In [this video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP5Wal2Dpss&feature=related) the jumper deploys at 0:38 and has an open canopy by 0:41. Interesting video. Is it just me or is that guy an idiot for not actually having the drogue chute in his grubby hands when he jumps rather than having to grab and pull it out as he falls? A miss grab or minor hang up and he’d be toast and I don’t really see the advantage of having it stowed away. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/47 "2012-03-12T02:17:30Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Even if you did, there’s the problem of landing. You will hit fairly hard, without the ability to use your legs as shock absorbers. Then you’ll have a large collapsed canopy smother your boat. There better not be any more rapids. So the chute wouldn’t cause you to drift gently downwards? ---
**Author:** ![Bumbershoot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bumbershoot/32/3428_2.png) [@Bumbershoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bumbershoot)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/48 "2012-03-12T02:26:18Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Interesting video. Is it just me or is that guy an idiot for not actually having the drogue chute in his grubby hands when he jumps rather than having to grab and pull it out as he falls? A miss grab or minor hang up and he’d be toast and I don’t really see the advantage of having it stowed away. Yeah, on a 350 ft. jump I would have the pilot chute in my hand. No good reason to stow it and as you pointed out, some very good reasons not to. ---
**Author:** ![Bumbershoot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bumbershoot/32/3428_2.png) [@Bumbershoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bumbershoot)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/49 "2012-03-12T02:31:21Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > So the chute wouldn’t cause you to drift gently downwards? Sure, it could. Lots of things could go wrong with your scenario, as people have pointed out. But I maintain that it is physically possible, as you originally asked. ---
**Author:** ![Bumbershoot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bumbershoot/32/3428_2.png) [@Bumbershoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bumbershoot)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/50 "2012-03-12T02:32:38Z")
How about this far-fetched scenario: The canoeist throws the pilot chute into an overhanging tree branch just before he goes over. The canopy is out of the canoe when it starts to tip. The pilot chute is attached to the canopy with velcro so it releases and doesn’t leave you hanging there. A strong head wind inflates the canopy just before the canoe goes over. The canoe is never at more than a 45 degree angle. What? It could happen. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/51 "2012-03-12T03:02:11Z")
Alright! It could happen. Not impossible. Highly improbable but not impossible. (Hey the canoe could hit a rock as a take off ramp and get some height …) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@dzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzero)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/52 "2012-03-12T03:05:07Z")
\*\*@Bumbershoot: \*\* Your real name wouldn’t be Wile E Coyote by any chance, would it? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bumbershoot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bumbershoot/32/3428_2.png) [@Bumbershoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bumbershoot)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/53 "2012-03-12T03:11:00Z")
Wile E Coyote, _Super_ Genius, that’s me! I’m curious now. I’m going to dust off my parachute and see if I can borrow a canoe. I’ll have a friend video my adventure and post it on youtube in memoriam to me. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/54 "2012-03-12T03:19:38Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > So the chute wouldn’t cause you to drift gently downwards? You’re not going to settle down like feather. You’re either going to hit hard and have to do a Parachute Landing Fall (Tuck and Roll) like in the military, or you’re going to have some serious forward momentum, as in sport jumping, either way sounds rather daunting in a canoe. > [@Bumbershoot](#): > > How about this far-fetched scenario: The canoeist throws the pilot chute into an overhanging tree branch just before he goes over. The canopy is out of the canoe when it starts to tip. The pilot chute is attached to the canopy with velcro so it releases and doesn’t leave you hanging there. A strong head wind inflates the canopy just before the canoe goes over. The canoe is never at more than a 45 degree angle. > > What? It could happen. I agree that it theoretically possible but we’re rapidly running out of waterfalls in the world where all these conditions exist. Remember, our hero is betting his life that this will all come together when he puts his boat in the water somewhere upstream. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/55 "2012-03-12T11:56:07Z")
:D. Another thought. I’ve done some canoe sailing with a tarp rigged as a sail. There are [commercially made rigs available.](http://www.paddling.net/buyersguide/accessories/showProduct.html?prodID=135&manfID=57&cat=&PHPSESSID=ulgiknnd4erve73cmiel3j9ch1) What if you used (under incredibly idealized conditions) a parachute to build speed even before reaching the falls? Tricky as hell, but if there is $$ available to fund this, it is a challenge I’d consider! Or a sail-chute conversion type of deal… ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/56 "2012-03-12T17:12:53Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Alright! It could happen. Not impossible. Highly improbable but not impossible. (Hey the canoe could hit a rock as a take off ramp and get some height …) > > 🙂 [Boof move](http://www.chrisj.winisp.net/articles/boofing.htm) ---
**Author:** ![dzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@dzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzero)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/57 "2012-03-12T18:01:24Z")
I hope I can be forgiven for thinking that sometimes dopers make some of these terms up and then go online to a few websites so as to backfill their cover story for the etymology of these “words.” Of course how you’re getting into my home and making changes to my copy of the 1965 unabridged Webster’s is still a source of great puzzlement, but rest assured, I will one day figure that part out too. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/58 "2012-03-12T19:33:34Z")
“Boof” has been a common term in the paddling community for a couple of decades, believe it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/59 "2012-03-12T19:48:06Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > I think a better idea would be a speedboat. Zoom right off the edge to get well clear of the fall before deploying the chute. If a re-entering space capsule can employ a chute to break its fall, I don’t see why an appropriately modified speedboat couldn’t. Sounds like a good device for a James Bond movie if nothing else. If the scene calls for a canoe you cannot simply substitute a speedboat, it would be out of place and thus arouse suspicion. Q, however, _can_ turn a regular every day canoe into one that sprouts wings and a jetpack just for the aforementioned waterfall getaway. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304/60 "2012-03-13T03:47:24Z")
Deploy a [big enough kite](http://horsesmouth.typepad.com/hm/2007/12/kite-power-part.html) before you go over the edge of the falls in the first place - provided that you have a good tailwind. [Kiteboat.](http://www.kiteboat.com/index.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-canoe-a-parachute-a-waterfall/615304.md?page=2)