# A case against some Christian schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2018, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964 "2018-08-21T12:44:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/21 "2018-08-21T15:55:09Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > What you, I, or what the man in the moon thinks about ONE particular issue is irrelevant. > > Why the heck are you basing your opinion about a school on ONE issue? > > What are the schools outcomes and results? How good did they do on the ACT? How many kids get into colleges? Do they offer the courses the kid wants? for example, my son wanted to take woodworking and cooking classes so he switched to a public school. other kids go to his school because of the STEM courses. > > Are their people openly selling drugs? > > How many police are stationed at the school? Did you bother to read the links that will answer at least some of your questions? ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/22 "2018-08-21T15:56:36Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > No, I dont think so. They used some of the same textbooks they used in the public schools and some different. They probably didn’t use ACE. What is really disingenuous about this post is that the ACE controversy was fought (and ACE lost it) in the 80s. So unless your son grew up in the 80s, he likely didn’t use ACE. ACE still uses inflated numbers, but they have been on the decline for 30 years. ACE is more than just textbooks. It’s one of those fad 70s learning systems. Its idea was that kids learn best when they are self-paced, so there are no such things as ‘grades’ in the ACE system. Everyone moves through the curriculum at their own pace. Teachers don’t lecture, they move around the classroom and answer questions to kids who are essentially teaching themselves. There aren’t grades per se, you work on the material until you master it and then move on to the next section. Students are responsible for writing their own goals of what they want to learn and then they earn ‘merits’ for exceeding those goals and ‘demerits’ for failing to meet them. It was actually criticized by both educators and fundamentalists alike. It had heavy emphasis on rote-learning instead of creativity and it was unable to incorporate out of classroom experiences into the learning environment. Fundamentalists thought that it was too much like 1984 (since it was common to sit children in their own cubes to avoid distraction – Ironically, they also complained that it was too secular in its curriculum.) and progressives thought that it failed to teach critical thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/23 "2018-08-21T16:09:04Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > They probably didn’t use ACE. What is really disingenuous about this post is that the ACE controversy was fought (and ACE lost it) in the 80s. So unless your son grew up in the 80s, he likely didn’t use ACE. ACE still uses inflated numbers, but they have been on the decline for 30 years. > > ACE is more than just textbooks. It’s one of those fad 70s learning systems. Its idea was that kids learn best when they are self-paced, so there are no such things as ‘grades’ in the ACE system. Everyone moves through the curriculum at their own pace. Teachers don’t lecture, they move around the classroom and answer questions to kids who are essentially teaching themselves. There aren’t grades per se, you work on the material until you master it and then move on to the next section. Students are responsible for writing their own goals of what they want to learn and then they earn ‘merits’ for exceeding those goals and ‘demerits’ for failing to meet them. > > It was actually criticized by both educators and fundamentalists alike. It had heavy emphasis on rote-learning instead of creativity and it was unable to incorporate out of classroom experiences into the learning environment. Fundamentalists thought that it was too much like 1984 (since it was common to sit children in their own cubes to avoid distraction – Ironically, they also complained that it was too secular in its curriculum.) and progressives thought that it failed to teach critical thinking. What is your source that ACE “lost the battle” back in the 80’s, and do you have any hard info on the number of schools using it and/or how many homeschools are based on it? The article mentioned that there is an ongoing problem with ACE in Europe, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/24 "2018-08-21T16:10:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you have anything to say about the ACE curriculum as described in the two links provided in the OP? I think he’s too busy successfully demolishing your rhetorical excess. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/25 "2018-08-21T16:13:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think he’s too busy successfully demolishing your rhetorical excess. Thank you for your well-reasoned input on this subject. Do you have anything more to say about the ACE curriculum? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/26 "2018-08-21T16:25:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Add to that the fact that my personal tax records are none of your business, **Shodan**. What tax money is going to schools who use this curriculum? Or are you objecting to something that doesn’t happen? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why would I go to this effort? Because you made an assertion, and this is GD. If you are going to argue a position based on some assertion, you need to back it up so we can tell if your position is valid. > [@](#): > > You already agree - it’s factually incorrect to say that abstinence before marriage is not 100% effective at preventing HIV. That’s good enough for me. So you object to teaching HIV prevention measures that aren’t 100% effective. Which HIV prevention measures are 100% effective? To be consistent, you should object to those as well. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/27 "2018-08-21T16:41:14Z")
Curriculums don’t really matter. 99% of Americans, at least, do not have an educated opinion on the respective rates of industrialization between pre- and post apartheid South Africa. I doubt that is because of incorrect curriculum. As long as the parents of the kids have no problem with this curriculum, I don’t see why anyone else should. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/28 "2018-08-21T16:48:17Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Curriculums don’t really matter. 99% of Americans, at least, do not have an educated opinion on the respective rates of industrialization between pre- and post apartheid South Africa. I doubt that is because of incorrect curriculum. > As long as the parents of the kids have no problem with this curriculum, I don’t see why anyone else should. Some people give a shit about what our future leaders are taught, and some don’t. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/29 "2018-08-21T17:19:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What is your source that ACE “lost the battle” back in the 80’s, and do you have any hard info on the number of schools using it and/or how many homeschools are based on it? The article mentioned that there is an ongoing problem with ACE in Europe, btw. Sure, their rhetorical excess is well-established. In the 1980s, they claimed 8000 ACE Schools (Despite there being only 3800 Conservative Christian schools in the country.) In 1999, they claimed 7000 schools in their brochure. They claimed that between 2000 and 2010, 5000 new ones had opened and right now they are claiming 6000 schools. They no longer list which schools are affiliated with them, but there were 47 listed in Europe in 2008, 36 of them in the UK (the number is believed to have dropped and is now closer to 30) educating about 2000 students including homeschoolers. The UK has about 7000 Christian schools, so .4% of Christian schools are ACE affiliated. If we look at total number of Christian schools in Europe, the 11 that exist are so small as to not even be statistical noise. Now perhaps that statistical noise is an on-going problem, but to be alarmist about it is ridiculous. They are shrinking during a period when the demographic is growing and that’s the bottom line. It’s hard to even hazard a guess at how many schools there really are, but we can probably take a good guess that you probably know no one who attends one or could even name one in your general area. I work for a university that recruits around the state and I can’t name a single one in my entire state. I’m not claiming that none exist, but I know for a fact that of the dozen or so private Christian schools in my area, none of them are ACE. We have a big group on SDMB, do any of you know of any ACE schools in your area? Here’s a thesis on ACE ([https://web.archive.org/web/20171125214858/http://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/1556460/7/Scaramanga\_1556460\_%20PhD\_thesis\_redacted.pdf](https://web.archive.org/web/20171125214858/http://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/1556460/7/Scaramanga_1556460_%20PhD_thesis_redacted.pdf)) page 17 has numbers. ACE is one of those bugaboos that people like to trot out that shows the excesses of private Christian schools. I can remember hearing about them as early as the early 90s and how horrible they were. It’s nice to know that they still suck as schools. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/30 "2018-08-21T17:27:56Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > Sure, their rhetorical excess is well-established. In the 1980s, they claimed 8000 ACE Schools (Despite there being only 3800 Conservative Christian schools in the country.) In 1999, they claimed 7000 schools in their brochure. They claimed that between 2000 and 2010, 5000 new ones had opened and right now they are claiming 6000 schools. They no longer list which schools are affiliated with them, but there were 47 listed in Europe in 2008, 36 of them in the UK (the number is believed to have dropped and is now closer to 30) educating about 2000 students including homeschoolers. The UK has about 7000 Christian schools, so .4% of Christian schools are ACE affiliated. If we look at total number of Christian schools in Europe, the 11 that exist are so small as to not even be statistical noise. Now perhaps that statistical noise is an on-going problem, but to be alarmist about it is ridiculous. > > They are shrinking during a period when the demographic is growing and that’s the bottom line. It’s hard to even hazard a guess at how many schools there really are, but we can probably take a good guess that you probably know no one who attends one or could even name one in your general area. I work for a university that recruits around the state and I can’t name a single one in my entire state. I’m not claiming that none exist, but I know for a fact that of the dozen or so private Christian schools in my area, none of them are ACE. We have a big group on SDMB, do any of you know of any ACE schools in your area? > > Here’s a thesis on ACE ([Wayback Machine](https://web.archive.org/web/20171125214858/http://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/1556460/7/Scaramanga_1556460_%20PhD_thesis_redacted.pdf)) page 17 has numbers. > > ACE is one of those bugaboos that people like to trot out that shows the excesses of private Christian schools. I can remember hearing about them as early as the early 90s and how horrible they were. It’s nice to know that they still suck as schools. Thanks for the link. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/31 "2018-08-21T17:44:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Some people give a shit about what our future leaders are taught, and some don’t. So your concern is that at some point the future leader will face a situation where the rate of industrialization of south africa will be relevant and have to think back to what they learned in fourth grade to make a decision? Odd what some people worry about. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/32 "2018-08-21T17:55:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because you made an assertion, and this is GD. If you are going to argue a position based on some assertion, you need to back it up so we can tell if your position is valid. So let’s see a cite for your original assertion – that “one can avoid AIDS by being abstinent until marriage” is a true statement. I’m simply disagreeing with that assertion. I’ll happily withdraw any other claim and focus on this assertion. > [@](#): > > So you object to teaching HIV prevention measures that aren’t 100% effective. No, though I object to prevention measures (teaching abstinence only) that are proven to be less effective than teaching comprehensive sex education (which includes information about abstinence): [https://www.mailman.columbia.edu/public-health-now/news/abstinence-only-until-marriage-programs-and-policies-are-failure](https://www.mailman.columbia.edu/public-health-now/news/abstinence-only-until-marriage-programs-and-policies-are-failure) > [@](#): > > Which HIV prevention measures are 100% effective? To be consistent, you should object to those as well. I’m unaware of any prevention measure that is 100% effective. How about you? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/33 "2018-08-21T18:07:53Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > So your concern is that at some point the future leader will face a situation where the rate of industrialization of south africa will be relevant and have to think back to what they learned in fourth grade to make a decision? Odd what some people worry about. Odder yet what wildly imaginative speculations arise from the simplest of statements. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/34 "2018-08-21T18:09:05Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > So your concern is that at some point the future leader will face a situation where the rate of industrialization of south africa will be relevant and have to think back to what they learned in fourth grade to make a decision? Odd what some people worry about. My concern is that some children will be taught that brutally oppressing black people is acceptable and defensible. Are you not concerned about this? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/35 "2018-08-21T18:13:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My concern is that some children will be taught that brutally oppressing black people is acceptable and defensible. Are you not concerned about this? What about the “facts” that a scale model is nothing more than a small picture, or that The Loch Ness Monster is proof that evolution is false. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/36 "2018-08-21T18:21:32Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > What is IMPORTANT is how the kids do in getting into colleges, passing standardized tests (like the ACT), and being ready for life. My sons Christian school outperformed the best public schools in the area on the ACT. How ready for life do you think your son is going to be if he was taught in school that black people and women are inferior to white men? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/37 "2018-08-21T19:37:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How ready for life do you think your son is going to be if he was taught in school that black people and women are inferior to white men? He’d be well trained for the Trump Administration. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/38 "2018-08-21T19:45:07Z")
[More](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/leavingfundamentalism/2015/03/18/can-i-introduce-you-to-jesus-nope/) [on](https://www.alternet.org/education/shocking-lessons-christian-educational-cartoons) [ACEholes](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/leavingfundamentalism/2014/11/03/accelerated-christian-educations-survivors-speak-out-2/). ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/39 "2018-08-21T20:01:01Z")
BTW, that Raw Story story is a recycling from the writer’s blog, [where he posted the questions originally in 2013](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/leavingfundamentalism/2013/12/09/33-jaw-droppingly-bad-multiple-choice-questions-from-accelerated-christian-education/). He has many posts on the topic, such as [this](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/leavingfundamentalism/2014/12/01/how-bad-can-christian-education-get-this-bad/) one. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964/40 "2018-08-21T20:03:02Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > BTW, that Raw Story story is a recycling from the writer’s blog, [where he posted the questions originally in 2013](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/leavingfundamentalism/2013/12/09/33-jaw-droppingly-bad-multiple-choice-questions-from-accelerated-christian-education/). He has many posts on the topic, such as [this](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/leavingfundamentalism/2014/12/01/how-bad-can-christian-education-get-this-bad/) one. Thank you for the clarification. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-case-against-some-christian-schools/819964.md?page=3)