# A Centenary "Sod off!" to Alan Turing from Britain's PM **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 8, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207 "2012-02-08T16:55:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/21 "2012-02-08T23:19:12Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > There’s no “allegedly” or “according to” about it. A few moments Googling would have led you to this, by the Prime Minister: > > [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/gordon-brown/6170112/Gordon-Brown-Im-proud-to-say-sorry-to-a-real-war-hero.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/gordon-brown/6170112/Gordon-Brown-Im-proud-to-say-sorry-to-a-real-war-hero.html) I was merely pointing out that the apology was right there in the OP. Not casting doubt on it. Sheesh, people are sensitive! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/22 "2012-02-09T00:36:16Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > Would a posthumous pardon change anything? Would it bring him back? If so, that would be fabulous! ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/23 "2012-02-09T00:49:12Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > :rolleyes: > There are probably other Brits still alive who were also convicted under that stupid law, who would love and deserve a pardon. They’re getting one. Well, not a pardon, but their convictions are going to be “disregarded”, meaning that legally it’s as if they never happened. It’s part of the [Protection of Freedoms Bill 2011](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Freedoms_Bill_2011#Part_5:_.22Safeguarding_Vulnerable_Groups.2C_Criminal_Records_etc..22) which has passed the Commons and is going through the Lords at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/24 "2012-02-09T00:55:25Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > The nerve of him! Admitting to being homosexual! He should’ve done the decent thing and lied. He DID do the decent thing! He took poison! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/25 "2012-02-09T01:46:04Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > :rolleyes: > There are probably other Brits still alive who were also convicted under that stupid law, who would love and deserve a pardon. > > ETA: Governments do stupid things all the time. Good governments recognize their mistakes and own up to them. Like the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada, which is basically apologizing for the residential schools that ruined the lives of so many natives. I guess Britain needs a better moral compass. The OP mentioned one dead guy not anyone alive. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/26 "2012-02-09T12:53:26Z")
I think the Brits can do better. They can erase Turing’s role in history. Then they won’t have to issue any apologies or pardons, and can state so in the original German. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/27 "2012-02-09T13:52:46Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > They’re getting one. Well, not a pardon, but their convictions are going to be “disregarded”, meaning that legally it’s as if they never happened. It’s part of the [Protection of Freedoms Bill 2011](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Freedoms_Bill_2011#Part_5:_.22Safeguarding_Vulnerable_Groups.2C_Criminal_Records_etc..22) which has passed the Commons and is going through the Lords at the moment. That would cover him, then, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/28 "2012-02-09T14:11:48Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > That would cover him, then, wouldn’t it? No. From the link already provided: > [@](#): > > Chapter 4 allows people to apply for the Secretary of State to disregard criminal convictions for homosexual acts by consenting adults under section 12 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956, or the “gross indecency between men” section of that Act. Clause 86 confirms the effect of a successful application would ensure the person is considered as having not committed, nor been charged, prosecuted or convicted of a homosexual act. I don’t think Turing will be posthumously applying for the Secretary of State to disregard his conviction. Nor does that summary state what the SoS should rule or why, just that an application can be made and that IF successful THEN the charge is considered to have never been made. Now if it said that all such past convictions are null and void automatically, that would do it. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/29 "2012-02-09T14:24:40Z")
I assume you’re refering to the New York Times article? The [Guardian article](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/the-northerner/2012/feb/07/alan-turing-pardon-lord-mcnally-lord-sharkey-computers?INTCMP=SRCH) contains the other half of what the Times quoted: > [@Guardian](#): > > It is tragic that Alan Turing was convicted of an offence which now seems both cruel and absurd-particularly poignant given his outstanding contribution to the war effort. However, the law at the time required a prosecution and, as such, long-standing policy has been to accept that such convictions took place and, rather than trying to alter the historical context and to put right what cannot be put right, ensure instead that we never again return to those times. I’m of a mind to agree that pardoning has elements of “whitewashing”, though I can see arguments both ways. Definitely don’t see this as pit-worthy, though I’d argue that the Times’ bias in its selective quoting and opinionated headline is pit-worthy. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/30 "2012-02-09T15:43:46Z")
I agree that Turing was one of my most influential mathematicians of the last century and played a pivotal role in developing the modern world. I also agree that prosecutions for homosexuality are terrible injustice that society has largely put behind us. That said, I just don’t see the utility of a post-humous pardon. The apology issued is, by far, the more important aspect because it recognizes that mistakes were made, and the law has already been changed. I think it stands as a reminder of where we’ve been that these laws persecuted a man with so much to contribute to society and all a pardon would do at this point, as since an apology is already made and he’s dead, is lessen any remaining impact. I’d hope that exactly this sort of circumstance will remain in our consciousness as other injustices of the past like slavery and women’s rights, so that as more of them arise in the future we don’t forget. Certainly, anyone who is alive and has such a conviction on their record should have it expunged, but it serves no real purpose to go back and issue pardons for famous dead people who receive no real benefit. So, yeah, it sucks that he was convicted of those crimes, but the part to pit is that he was convicted of it, an apology and a correction of the injustice has happened. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/31 "2012-02-09T17:34:44Z")
Next you will be wanting Thomas More pardoned. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/32 "2012-02-09T18:25:07Z")
Yes. AND his head reattached, if you please… ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/33 "2012-02-09T18:56:49Z")
How many people in the UK actually get “pardoned” every year? I’ve never heard of this practice taking place in Britain, anyway, and always associated it with America. It seems a bit of a fuss over nothing: the guy’s dead, the UK government formally apologised, there’s a bill being passed through Parliament allowing living convicted homosexuals to have their convictions overturned, for all intents and purposes. Why does anything else need doing? ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/34 "2012-02-10T01:51:38Z")
IF a pardon were to be issued to Turing, then one should be issued to everyone that was convicted of the same “crime”. At this point though, I don’t think it really matters. For a slightly different circumstance, I seem to remember that in New Zealand those that received convictions related to the Spring Bok tour protests have all been given pardons. (a two minute google didn’t turn up a cite) Most of these people are still living, and it does and has made a real difference to their lives, and is something that was fully deserved. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/35 "2012-02-10T03:21:45Z")
With all due respect, shouldn’t it have been “Bugger off”? ---
**Author:** ![Lobot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ce7236/32.png) [@Lobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobot)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/36 "2012-02-10T03:49:54Z")
The injustice of it was not only that the Turing was treated badly due to an unjust law, but that his country treated him with contempt when he’d done so much to help it during the War. It’s for the latter reason that he deserves a pardon, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![ticker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@ticker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ticker)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/37 "2012-02-10T10:34:08Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > IF a pardon were to be issued to Turing, then one should be issued to everyone that was convicted of the same “crime”. Agreed > [@bengangmo](#): > > At this point though, I don’t think it really matters. > > For a slightly different circumstance, > > I seem to remember that in New Zealand those that received convictions related to the Spring Bok tour protests have all been given pardons. (a two minute google didn’t turn up a cite) > > Most of these people are still living, and it does and has made a real difference to their lives, and is something that was fully deserved. Plenty of men who were active homosexuals at the same time as Turing will still be alive. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/38 "2012-02-10T18:53:06Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > They’re getting one. Well, not a pardon, but their convictions are going to be “disregarded”, meaning that legally it’s as if they never happened. It’s part of the [Protection of Freedoms Bill 2011](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Freedoms_Bill_2011#Part_5:_.22Safeguarding_Vulnerable_Groups.2C_Criminal_Records_etc..22) which has passed the Commons and is going through the Lords at the moment. And this proves that the concept of not undoing what has already been done so it can serve as a reminder is a lie. Why are they trying to erase the convictions rather than just make it where, from now on, they are no longer guilty? No the reason they don’t want to undo it is almost certainly practical. You pardon one dead person for an unjust conviction, what justification do you have to not go back through your entire history? At least the distinction between living and dead puts an absolute limit on how far back you need to go. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/39 "2012-02-10T19:37:29Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207/40 "2012-02-10T20:49:15Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > Would a posthumous pardon change anything? Would it bring him back? Well we won’t know unless we try! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centenary-sod-off-to-alan-turing-from-britains-pm/612207.md?page=3)