# A Centrist Lost in 2020
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [February 27, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310 "2019-02-27T21:25:16Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/81 "2019-03-02T16:07:49Z")
> [@UltraVires](#):
>
> Nobody has proposed a law saying that …
Which is the point.
Someone whose personal beliefs are that abortion is morally repugnant but who is against making it illegal is very different than someone who wants to make it illegal.
Claiming that someone with personal beliefs that guns are bad and who still accepts that others have the right to believe otherwise and to own them responsibly is going to confiscate guns was what was objected to.
Sure you are free to not like someone’s beliefs that tour choice is a bad one. I’m pretty sure you disapprove of some of my choices. We can still allow each other the freedom to make what the other thinks is a poor decision.
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### Author:  [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2019, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/82 "2019-03-02T17:25:25Z")
I used to think I was a “centrist”, but it was really a way for me to always claim that none of the problems of the day were my fault. I finally decided that it was a poor way to go through life. Pick a side, and work with that side.
Also, long, long ago I used to think I was a libertarian. :smack::smack::smack:
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/83 "2019-03-02T17:34:40Z")
> [@UltraVires](#):
>
> Nobody has proposed a law saying that there should be a maximum of 5:1 between CEO pay and lowest worker pay, but we always see stats posted about how in 1950 it was only Y:1 but today it is X:1 with no further elaboration on why that is an important thing to mention.
You’re reading the wrong articles or perhaps not bothering to go past the first paragraph. When I see this it’s always in the context of a larger discussion of how income inequality is affecting society.
> [@](#):
>
> Likewise a poster upthread believes that owning handguns in antithetical to our values, but then states that he would not criminalize them.
>
> To make these statements imply a hostility towards the object such as if I own a handgun, or believe that CEO pay disparity is not indicative of anything negative, then perhaps I don’t want to vote for that person, even though that person did not make the 5:1 proposal?
Or it could possibly mean that as a liberal I would honor the law of the land, instead of conservatives who approach anything they don’t like by wanting to make it illegal, no matter how much popular support it has. (Homosexuality, marijuana, background checks, abortion, separation of church and state, …)
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### Author:  [@Dacien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dacien)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/84 "2019-03-02T21:28:05Z")
> [@sps49sd](#):
>
> \>Gun Control - I own guns. I support the 2nd amendment but cannot understand the conservative logic that anyone (Dems) will take away your guns. It is hyperbolic and republican scare tactic.
>
> Except for the Democrats such as Dianne Feinstein who have stated that, plus some Dopers. Most gun grabbers have learned to not say this outright.
Somewhat related, but support for banning semi-automatuc rifles is in the minority at 40 percent, but once you ask about a ban on the AR-15, it shoots up to 60 percent support. People oppose broad restrictions but are much more agreeable to specific gun grabs, even if there are hundreds of guns that operate exactly the same.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/85 "2019-03-03T00:30:04Z")
> [@chargerrich](#):
>
> You raise a good point, thanks for all the feedback.
>
> I definitely like to think that I do align more with the democratic party but reflecting on my post I probably posited an incomplete view of my political leanings.
>
> Some of my more conservative leanings include:
>
> - I am pro tax reform (flat/consumer) - not likely to ever happen though
> - I do not support healthcare for illegal immigrants
> - I do support improved border security w/o the wall but understand the debate
> - I generally (with some exception) disagree with affirmative action
> - I do not support Univseral Basic Income
> - I actually support increased tariffs on some countries
> - I disagree with foreign terrorists given constitutional rights
> - I am only ever so slightly against travel bans from terrorists countries
> - I am pro-drone strikes against terrorists countries even realizing the casualties (keeping our soldiers safe being paramount)
>
> **I think my fear is the old guard democrats will give way to more of the hardcore progressives/socialists** which I find every bit as scary (for very different reasons) as the far right.
Never gonna happen. Due to party discipline, the Republicans have historically displayed the tendency to place themselves in the clutches of whomever can grab and hold the majority of the power, but Democrats love to schism.
The day after the Republican Party ceases to exist, the Democratic Party will split like an atom of Fr223.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2019, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/86 "2019-03-03T01:09:22Z")
> [@Grey](#):
>
> As a Canadian, your “hardcore progressive/socialists” are as threatening as warm milk.
Did the milk become warm by being heated, or by being left out on the counter?
Need answer fast.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2019, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/87 "2019-03-03T01:58:33Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#):
>
> You might be surprised to learn that there is a not inconsiderable number of conservatives who also support a Universal Basic Income and not just some fringe people. Conservative economic luminaries such as [Milton Friedman](https://medium.com/basic-income/why-milton-friedman-supported-a-guaranteed-income-5-reasons-da6e628f6070) support a UBI.
I **would** be surprised. I’d love to see some poll results supporting this thesis.
Or even one current GOP member of Congress speaking up on behalf of a UBI.
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### Author:  [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2019, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/88 "2019-03-03T02:48:11Z")
THANK you. I’m right there in the middle, too, tired of the pendulum’s overarching swing back and forth.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2019, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/89 "2019-03-03T02:52:52Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#):
>
> I **would** be surprised. I’d love to see some poll results supporting this thesis.
>
> Or even one current GOP member of Congress speaking up on behalf of a UBI.
[Gallup](https://news.gallup.com/poll/228194/public-split-basic-income-workers-replaced-robots.aspx?g_source=link_NEWSV9&g_medium=LEAD&g_campaign=item_&g_content=Public%2520Split%2520on%2520Basic%2520Income%2520for%2520Workers%2520Replaced%2520by%2520Robots). 28% of Republicans support the idea. Fewer than Ds to be sure but not an insignificant number.
[This](https://www.dataforprogress.org/polling-the-left-agenda/) is interesting. Among White UBI polls negative 26% among college educated whites but positive 2 among “white working class”.
[But](https://basicincome.org/news/2018/08/us-poll-of-left-agenda-examines-support-for-basic-income/) another poll finds that “less than 17 percent of Trump voters in the survey supported the idea of an income-tax-funded UBI. Indeed, among those who voted for the Republican candidate, 64 percent strongly opposed the policy.”
So some conservatives yes, but not the ones who voted for Trump I guess. Even though they are more commonly white working class. It seems contradictory to me but there it is.
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### Author:  [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2019, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/90 "2019-03-03T04:36:34Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#):
>
> Sure.
>
> You know you could Google it too right?
Wiki doesn’t assert that centrism is an ideology like you did. It does say that some ideologies can be centrist.
What’s the difference…an ideology would suggest that people are deliberately finding the midpoint in a controversy and staking a claim on it, for the sake of being the middle ground in a controversy. Which some might be doing, and which may be the focus of the WaPo article cited by **madmonk28** that I can’t access. I’m not sure. We do know that can be an institutional-type view that explains some of the complaints you hear about the media and political coverage. It follows a certain formula: the administration or a government official makes some false or batshit claim, and an opposition gathers in response with rebuttals, and the media dutifully presents both sides to the public in equal measure, on equal footing. Over and over again. That’s a kind of ideological centrism.
Centrist people can be a different thing, they’re just there, in the middle. Party or no party, they’re likely to take offense at others who don’t want illegal immigrants to get health care and question their humanity, ffs, not recruit them. That’s just a general heads up.
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2019, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/91 "2019-03-03T07:35:15Z")
Thinking would be easy, and strict ideologies all the rage if simple principles could be relied on, and details or quantitative effects were irrelevant. Here are some examples:
- Mr. A thinks the right to bear arms is inviolable. AR-15s? Ha! Everyone has the right to bazookas, anti-aircraft missiles, nukes and weaponized anthrax. It’s all there in the Constitution.
- Ms. B wants the right to kill her fetus. The month before birth? Why not the month after birth? Age 10, age 20, whatever. If the kid is still living in my house then he/she is mine to dispose of.
- Mr. C wants to ban carcinogenics. We banned asbestos which was causing tens of thousands of cancer deaths per year, and similarly for secondhand smoke. But we need to ban paprika also; even its mildest forms can kill. Isn’t all human life sacred? Isn’t a single cancer death due to paprika too much?
I hope you get my point. If “centrism” means the ability to find a middle ground between hilariously extreme positions, then count me in!
> [@UltraVires](#):
>
> Nobody has proposed a law saying that there should be a maximum of 5:1 between CEO pay and lowest worker pay, but we always see stats posted about how in 1950 it was only Y:1 but today it is X:1 with no further elaboration on why that is an important thing to mention…
> To make these statements imply a hostility towards the object such as if I … believe that CEO pay disparity is not indicative of anything negative, then perhaps I don’t want to vote for that person, even though that person did not make the 5:1 proposal?
I notice you didn’t deign to write real numbers, using “Y” and “X” (just like the guy opposed to all carcinogenics who isn’t happy to reveal how many lives the banning of paprika would actually save).
Let me help. [According to this source](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/16/ceo-versus-worker-wage-american-companies-pay-gap-study-2018) the CEO-worker wage ratio at big companies was 312:1 in 2017 and 20:1 in 1965. It appears that median worker, not lowest-paid worker, was used for the comparison. (Those figures are for the U.S.A. The ratios are _much_ less in Europe.)
312 is significantly larger than 20. For those who see no problem I’ll ask: 3000:1? 30,000:1? Is there any point beyond which you would see a problem? Or is this a matter of integrity to “principles.” If the 2A gives the right to bear arms then combat helicopters and nuclear weapons are on the table. If it’s good that a free-enterprise system doesn’t impose identical wages for everyone, then the more disparity the better?
AFAIK, no American politician or opinion-maker outside the Yahoo lunatic fringes is proposing absolute salary caps. _ **Instead the inequality is addressed with gradual measures, or tax policies.** _
The present U.S. tax code calls for 35% marginal tax at $210,000 and only 37% at $25,000,000. Is this best practice? Is the $25,000,000 earner doing only slightly better than the $210,000 earner? Bill Clinton proposed that salaries beyond some threshold ($1 million?) should not be deductible to the corporation. Perhaps that should be extended somehow to bonuses and stock options.
Some of us think that a dollar spent on food for a hungry human child is better spent than on feeding caviar to the cats of an indulgent billionaire. Nobody wants to steal the cat’s caviar at gunpoint, but we might want to push the billionaire from a 37% bracket into 39% so we could fund subsidized childcare. Does that sentiment mean that we are Stalinist central planners?
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### Author:  [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2019, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/92 "2019-03-03T18:02:55Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#):
>
> I have a deep belief that these weapons are antithetical to our values. That doesn’t mean I want to confiscate legal guns. That’s the kind of leap that devalues the discussion and convinces liberals that conservatives can’t be rational on the subject.
I did not say you did. I said Dianne Feinstein, senior Senator from California, wants to ban firearms.
Except for those of her security detail, of course.
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### Author:  [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/93 "2019-03-03T18:14:44Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> …Some of us think that a dollar spent on food for a hungry human child is better spent than on feeding caviar to the cats of an indulgent billionaire. Nobody wants to steal the cat’s caviar at gunpoint, but we might want to push the billionaire from a 37% bracket into 39% so we could fund subsidized childcare. Does that sentiment mean that we are Stalinist central planners?
I think the tax rates are too low for higher incomes, too, but-
If you want to spend your dollar on for a hungry human child, go right ahead. That is different than wanting to spend someone else’s dollar the way you would like; your billionaire can spend their own money as they want. And their taxes, at 35% or 39%, feed far more hungry human children than you or I could with our earnings over our entire lifetimes.
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2019, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/94 "2019-03-03T20:10:35Z")
> [@sps49sd](#):
>
> I did not say you did. I said Dianne Feinstein, senior Senator from California, wants to ban firearms.
> Except for those of her security detail, of course.
Here’s what [Politifact](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/oct/08/chris-cox/nras-chris-cox-falsely-says-dianne-feinstein-wante/)says on the subject.
Does she want to ban \*some \*guns? Yes. Does every public actor in the U.S., including the NRA, want to ban \*some \*guns? Yes. The only difference is which set of guns they want banned. Any argument that doesn’t include that qualification is disingenuous and not worthy of our time.
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### Author:  [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)
#### Post date: [March 3, 2019, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/95 "2019-03-03T23:58:00Z")
> [@sps49sd](#):
>
> I think the tax rates are too low for higher incomes, too, but-If you want to spend your dollar on for a hungry human child, go right ahead.
Ah, the whole “Warren Buffet should just write a check to the government” canard. Or is it the “charities should do the work, not the government” positions.
Both issues have been [discussed](https://bigthink.com/the-moral-sciences-club/why-dont-people-voluntarily-pay-more-in-taxes) and [discussed](https://slate.com/business/2014/03/private-charity-and-the-safety-net-why-philanthropy-cant-replace-government.html) and most people not part of the Cato Institute realize that both positions are untenable. There is a reason that the government should be expected to handle certain things and a reason we as a people should be required to fund those efforts adequately.
Relevant to the OP: I was glad to see that **Left Hand of Dorkness** brought up the Overton Window. The fact is that window seems to have moved as far to the right as the country could bear and is now suddenly creaking slightly leftward.
It can be argued that means we are finally moving it to an area that better represents where we stand as a nation. To be sure, it was puzzling that Republicans kept winning elections while their actual positions on topics that are important to Americans have consistently skewed more extreme to the right than Americans would poll.
The false equivalence of a few congresscritters such as AOC are somehow the exact same as, say, The Tea Party was seems silly to me. The Tea Party got things done. Terrible things to be sure. Things I didn’t agree with and things that the past decade have shown to not be beneficial to this country. They had enough power in the Republican caucus to give Boeher fits and usually acquiesce to their extremism. Whereas Pelosi may disagree with some positions and tactics of the freshman class but she probably won’t call them assholes and what some may call a mixed record of dealing with them I charitably see as her balancing their enthusiasm with her ability to work the system.
My point is that those who say centrism is dead are wrong: The Democratic Party, thanks to the Overton Window, is a centrist party with a minority fringe that is slowly moving it to the left. Even when they have legislative control, they attempt (often misguidedly, in my opinion) to work with the opposition party.
The Republican Party, on the other hand, has mainstream views on most issues that are extreme to the right and an unwillingness to compromise unless you mean how someone like Susan Collins who talks a big game but reliably falls into line when she is needed. Being an ineffectual contrarian is literally the farthest to the center than a Republican on the national stage is allowed to be.
So supporting Democratic candidates should be easy for the OP. Even if that was just because they _weren’t_ Republicans would be enough as it stands now. Fortunately for the OP, that isn’t the only reason,
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### Author:  [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2019, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/96 "2019-03-04T00:00:40Z")
This reminds me of the George Carlin joke about drivers. Anyone who is driving faster than you is a maniac and anyone who is driving slower than you is a moron. I think this applies to someone’s politics as well. We all know someone further left or right than us that we think is either nuts or purely evil, respectively. That doesn’t make us centrists.
Enlightened centrists are just about the most annoying people I can think of. How can you pay attention to what is going on and still not pick a “side”?
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2019, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/97 "2019-03-04T15:04:32Z")
> [@nate](#):
>
> Enlightened centrists are just about the most annoying people I can think of. How can you pay attention to what is going on and still not pick a “side”?
Nitpick: “Centrist” doesn’t mean “unable to pick between the Ds and the Rs.” I think I speak for many centrists here in saying there is no longer any doubt whatsoever which side we must support.
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### Author:  [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)
#### Post date: [March 9, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/98 "2019-03-09T14:58:56Z")
> [@sps49sd](#):
>
> No, read more of what she has said. She will refer to the damage done to Harvey Milk by a handgun- not an ‘assault weapon’, not a hunting rifle- and say things like “I know from first-hand experience what damage … weapons can do to bodies. I have a deep belief that these weapons are antithetical to our values.”
>
> I think she said what she meant, then walked it back later.
Note the use of the word “these”. That word is used to indicate a subset of a greater whole. As in the phrase “These Republicans are morons” implying the existence of Republicans who are not morons. Your use of the phrase “walked it back” is pejorative, clarified might be more accurate.
Conversely, I am required to admire your ability to take something that someone actually _said_ and tell us what they actually _meant._
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [March 9, 2019, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/99 "2019-03-09T15:57:21Z")
> [@sps49sd](#):
>
> I think she said what she meant, then walked it back later.
Trump has walked back hundreds if not thousands of things he has said over his lifetime. I assume that means you believe he only meant the original saying and not any of the corrections. That must give you a very… interesting view of his convictions.
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### Author:  [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)
#### Post date: [March 9, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-centrist-lost-in-2020/830310/100 "2019-03-09T16:47:12Z")
> [@chargerrich](#):
>
> I would argue you are potentially taking my comments out of context, but that is likely fair game since I did not elaborate. I think US citizens are and should be given rights that are exclusive to their citizenship.
>
> That does not mean I support terrorists having zero rights and I think some of the stuff coming out of Gitmo was horrific. Basic human rights should be afford to … well all humans … but I think everyone can agree that is a lower standard than US citizen rights.
Citizenship has nothing to do with it. The fifth amendment, to pick an example, applies to anyone under US jurisdiction. It says “persons”, not “citizens”. There are rights that apply only to citizens (I can’t vote in the US, nor can I donate to a political candidate), but there are also those that apply to non-citizens as well.
> [@](#):
>
> In my humble opinion, giving a terrorist the same rights as a US citizen would arguably cripple attempts to fight terrorism.
What’s the argument?
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