# A certified waste? (IT dopers help!) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 28, 2001, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-certified-waste-it-dopers-help/70509 "2001-06-28T19:12:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lazarus7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/67e7ee/32.png) [@Lazarus7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lazarus7)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-certified-waste-it-dopers-help/70509/21 "2001-07-01T03:12:44Z")
I got my MCSE certification (Win2K + SQL) abuot two months ago. I have 4+ years of experience … I have sales training … I have customer service training. I have worked with users groups ranging from one to 1500 … and I am unemployed. Why you might ask? Beats the red-orange f_ck paste out of me. Perhaps it is my use of phrases such as "red-orange f_ck paste" but I digress. So much of what I see in this industry is that it is not what you know, or even what you appear to know, but rather who knows you. Sadly I am living in a town now where I have very few IT contacts. That is probably my biggest downfall. So good luck with your certifications … (hey … anyone want to hire a slightly used, but well trained systems administrator?? - no? … seriously ?) ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-certified-waste-it-dopers-help/70509/22 "2001-07-01T04:04:18Z")
Certifications are great for things like government positions that have completely inflexible (and arbitrary) paper requirements. It doesn’t matter how much actual experience you have, if you don’t meet the paper requirements you ain’t getting the job. I’m also told they’re good “tie breakers”, in that if you and JoeBob have nearly identical resume’s, but you have a cert, you’re more likely to be called for an interview. Other than that, they’re pretty useless. Always get the company to pay for them if possible. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-certified-waste-it-dopers-help/70509/23 "2001-07-01T07:41:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beelzebubba \* > \*\*Certifications are great for things like government positions that have completely inflexible (and arbitrary) paper requirements. It doesn’t matter how much actual experience you have, if you don’t meet the paper requirements you ain’t getting the job. you’d be suprised how many non-gov jobs are inflexible. the recruiter is told"find me someone with a MCSE", and they won’t talk to you without it. I had a friend who worked for novell for several years. He had a ECNE, which at the time for Novell(I have no idea what their certs are like now), was as high as you can go. He had companys that wouldnt even talk to him because they were told to look for a CNE. He had to explain more than once that ECNE is higher than a CNE, and that you have to have a CNE to get an ECNE. One recuiter still wouldnt accept it, she asked if he could get a CNE, otherwise he wouldnt be considered. Never assume that the front line you have to get past will know anything about the job you are trying to get. > [@](#): > > I’m also told they’re good “tie breakers”, in that if you and JoeBob have nearly identical resume’s, but you have a cert, you’re more likely to be called for an interview. Other than that, they’re pretty useless. again it depends on the kind of company you are going to work for. If they sell your services to another company, they often like you to be certified so they can charge more. I have worked at a couple of places now that the entire IT department was out-sourced. I think a mojority of the larger companies are outsourcing their IT departments. The company that signs my paycheck has 48,000 employees, all of which are assigned to do the IT work for other companys. And those kind of positions usually require certification for the very reason that they can charge the end customer more for that persons services. Certifications may be a Scam for the most part, but dont look for it to go away anytime soon. Theres too much money involved. > [@](#): > > Always get the company to pay for them if possible. \*\* Damn straight. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-certified-waste-it-dopers-help/70509/24 "2001-07-01T07:45:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lazarus7 \* > \*\* > > (hey … anyone want to hire a slightly used, but well trained systems administrator?? - no? … seriously ?) \*\* I can submit your resume for you to our HR. They have accounts all over the world, so they might have something in your area. ---
**Author:** ![Lazarus7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/67e7ee/32.png) [@Lazarus7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lazarus7)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-certified-waste-it-dopers-help/70509/25 "2001-07-01T17:24:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bdgr \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Lazarus7 \* > > \*\* > > > > (hey … anyone want to hire a slightly used, but well trained systems administrator?? - no? … seriously ?) \*\* > > I can submit your resume for you to our HR. They have accounts all over the world, so they might have something in your area. \*\* seriously? … that would be great!! you can find my resume at [http://www.ellisclan.com/employ](http://www.ellisclan.com/employ) (it will ask you for a password but just click cancel and it will work fine). or email me so I can shower you with praise as well !! ( [matthew@ellisclan.com](mailto:matthew@ellisclan.com) ) ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2001, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-certified-waste-it-dopers-help/70509/26 "2001-07-02T05:06:06Z")
Hmm… This is interesting. And somewhat related to what I’m doing. I have a bee in my bonnet, and have decided I wanted to certify for Adobe Photoshop. I’ve got a lot more studying to do, though. I know that even if I certify, it won’t show if I have talent or not. And when it comes to Photoshop or any other graphics program, you _gotta_ have talent. (But I do believe I have at least a bit of artistic talent, if I do say so myself.) I just figured that certifying will be a shot in the arm for _me_, and give me some internal confidence. Plus, it would help me learn the program inside and out, which would certainly be a plus. Of course, I’m hoping that perhaps somewhere, perhaps, a little, a Photoshop certification might get my foot in the door, or tip the scales in my favor just a little bit. Or so I’ve been told. Do any of you have any pearls of wisdom about certifying for Photoshop? Any insights? ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2001, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-certified-waste-it-dopers-help/70509/27 "2001-07-02T09:59:24Z")
Certifications are never a disadvantage (unless, as in **bdgr** ’s example, some HR droid doesn’t know one from the other). Especially for people without a degree (or with a decades old degree), certs might be worth the time & effort. One of the toughest, roughest, most competent network people I’ve ever had the pleasure of working with had no formal qualifications beyond being a licensed electrician. His salary levels sure got ratched up a notch or two when he certified… I’m currently trying to work up the energy to reattempt the infamous CCIE (flunked the lab test twice, grumble), not just to get the paper (actually, it’s a framed medal sort of thing 😉 ) but also to refresh the knowledge. It’s very easy to get locked down into one specific branch of networking (for instance, as I’m currently working for an ISP, I’m getting out of touch with the non-IP protocols), so the studying would probably do me nothing but good. Worth the effort ? As I predict a bit of job mobility in the immediate future, anything helps. However, if I’d stayed with my old telco job until retirement, why suffer through it ? Oh, and you fellows left out one item on the lost of potential employer priorities. Does he/she come recommended from someone I trust ? Networking (no, not the IT sort) is certainly a huge advantage. S. Norman ---
**Author:** ![cykrider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@cykrider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cykrider)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2001, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-certified-waste-it-dopers-help/70509/28 "2001-07-02T20:11:44Z")
CCIE is the highest level of Cisco cert. right? That’s what I plan on obtaining…someday…hopefully. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2001, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-certified-waste-it-dopers-help/70509/29 "2001-07-03T10:31:43Z")
As far as I know, CCIE is still at the top of the Cisco food chain. And it’s a total killer - I did my lab attempts in Brussels, and that has to be the wildest exam I’ve ever attempted. Not that any of the individual tasks were downright impossible, but the time is so limited you have to have an amazing amount of detail committed to memory - not just IP, but some rather esoteric stuff as well. The upside is that the width of study needed gives a lot of background. But by all means, go for it. It gets to the point where the knowledge is so arcane it’s actually kinda fun in a masochistic way. And besides, there’s this cool CCIE leather jacket… S. Norman ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2001, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-certified-waste-it-dopers-help/70509/30 "2001-07-03T15:21:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spiny Norman \* > \*\*As far as I know, CCIE is still at the top of the Cisco food chain. > > And it’s a total killer…\*\* Truth, and then a bit more! It’s a cast-iron bitch, is what it is. Be aware, should you pass that monstrosity, not only will you be joining a _very_ small elite group (~6000 in the US, last I checked), you’ll likely wind-up locked into infrastructure positions forever. High-paying infrastructure positions, to be sure, but you’ll be type-cast. My experience from watching CCIEs in the job market is that only the bigger companies can afford to keep more than one on staff, most rent them by the hour/project. Frequently they have to accept positions outside their area because no one can afford them. If you wind-up at an outsourcing firm, you’ll alternate between travel and the bench, with lots of both (unless it’s big firm: Then it’s all travel). But you’ll still have the cool jacket. 🆒 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-certified-waste-it-dopers-help/70509.md?page=1)