A challenge for the creationists.

Imnotmad, two things:

1.) ALL fossils are transitional fossils.

2.) The fact that creationism is not falsifiable is the reason that it is worthless as a hypothesis and is not a scientific theory.

“Macroeveolution” is the same thing as microeveolution. The process is the same. If microevolution is possible, then macroevolution is possible because is no difference in the mechanism. The distinction is meaningless.

All evolutionary hypotheses are falsifiable…that is, predictions can be made from those hypotheses and those predictions can be (and have been) tested.

Evolution, as a viable theory, has never failed a test.

Short answer: because fossilzation is a very rare process requiring rather rare conditions.

I should also note that Darwin WAS wrong about this… but in the other direction. He underestimated how complete a fossil record there could be, and so he didn’t try to base his case on it that much. But we’ve since found far far more than he ever expected we would be able to.

I’m not an expert in this field but I am a Christian. From what I remember, one piece of evidence is the human eye, which scientists haven’t been able to explain how it “evolved”. But what I want to know is that, if evolutionists don’t believe in creation and everything formed by the Big Bang Theory, where did that single concentration of infinite energy come from? Only a God could have created that. And where did God come from then? Well that part obviously doesn’t need to be explained.

I’ve stayed out of these threads for a while. But I’m going to try something different (and lengthy) here. I’m going to try to give advice to a creationist (let’s call him Duane) who really wants to frame his thoughts scientifically.

First, I would like to remind Duane that we could spend all day picking at evolution. Hell, I’m getting a PhD in molecular evolution and I spend all day picking at evolution. Finding an aspect of evolution with which you do not agree does nothing for any alternative theories. I have my own list of stuff that I can’t explain using evolution, but that’s why I do science.

Here’s how I would tell Duane to approach scientific creationism. The first and foremost thing to do is to come up with a really tight definition of what he means by creationism, and how it differs from the events presented by evolution. The closest I have seen is akin to:
“X number of ‘kinds’ were created at time Y. These kinds have diverged by microevolutionary processes since Y, and leave us with our current diversity of life.”

Even this is not acceptable – in order to do anything with this definition, we need to tightly define ‘kinds.’ So work on that. Perhaps even frame it in something scientists can grasp, like already existing taxa.

Defining creationism seems to be at the root of scientific creationists problems. With a firm scientifically phrased definition, Duane would be able to make testable predictions. Even the Intelligent Design people (who want to seem like the most scientifically strident) can’t do this – instead they aim to poke holes in evolution without making testable predictions.

With a good definition, we can start to formulate hypotheses. Do we expect to see homology between similarly functioning genes in different kinds? Do we expect to see orthology between protein classes with no apparent functional conservation? How can we define the ‘kinds number’ X or the time Y? These questions have been asked in an evolutionary context; with a proper definition they could be asked in a creationist context.

Of course this is unrealistic. At every point we run into the same two problems. The first is that the questions have all been asked in an evolutionary context, and all of the data point to evolution. So our creationist friend is going to have to do hard reinterpretation of an incomprehensible amount of primary data, ranging in fields across the scientific spectrum.

The second problem is more serious. Every question framed in a creationist viewpoint eventually asks the unknowable – what were the motives and methods of the creator? This is easily seen in the building block question. Duane will look at the molecular data, see tons of orthology and homology, come to the conclusion that the creator used common building blocks, even where it is nonobvious (except in an evolutionary context). No more questions about this can be asked, nothing can be predicted, and therefore that part of the theory is largely dispensable. The creator used building blocks because. The creator created X kinds because. The creator made at time Y because. Anything dealing with the real core of the theory, the creation, is scientifically meaningless because the creator is unknowable. Therefore, the only thing separating creationism from evolution is dispensable. Predictions made by the theory are all based on things that have happened since the creation, and those things are all evolutionary.

Actually, even all the way back to Darwin this has been discussed, and the evolution of the eye has tons of literature on it. You might be confused in that eyes don’t fossilze, so we can’t tell exactly how eyes did evolve. But there are plenty of plausible pathways that have been explored that fit the evidence, and genetic studies may allow us to look “back in time” to learn about exactly how it worked.

Actually, Darwin laid out a quite plausible scenario for the development of the eye in Cahpter 6 of The Origin of Species** and his general outline has been confirmed by later studies. (Scroll to Organs of extreme perfection and complication in The Origin of Species Chapter 6.)

Beyond that, the issue of the Big Bang is one of cosmology and physics and is not actually germane to a discussion of Evolution (regardless that a great many of the people who are on “one side” of the evolution discussion are also on “one side” of the cosmology discussion. The same holds true for “origin of life” (creation vs abiogenesis) discussions. Evolution describes how living creatures evolve, regardless how life or the universe began.

If you mean “creationist” to mean someone who believes that God created the heavens and the earth (and all therein) some time in the past, then I’m a creationist.

If you mean “creationist” to mean someone who believes that God created all in six days (as we measure them) and did so roughly 6000 years back, then I’m decidedly not a creationist.

Personally, I have a problem with Christians who worship a “God of the Gaps.” That is, everything that is unexplained or illogical must therefore be due to God. In addition, I have a problem with “evolutionists” who posit a “God of the Gaps,” claiming that, if science can explain it, then God had nothing to do with it.

Philosophical, cosmological, or religious arguments are the products of man’s search for meaning. Testing them with the rigors of the scientific method is ludicrous and unnecessary.

Having said that, trying to disguise religious doctrine as scientific is equally as dumb.

1.) You are misinformed about scientists not being able to explain the evolution of the eye.

2.) The big bang has nothing to do with evolution. You are conflating two theories. You also seem t have the impression that evolution has anything to say about the existence or non-existence of God. It does not. Evolutionary science makes no attempt to prove or disprove the existence of God or the origin of the universe (or even the origin of life). All it does is study the confirmed phenomenon that biological populations adapt and change over time.

Feel free to read the chapter for yourself:

http://www.bartleby.com/11/1001.html

The sudden appearance of fossils forms can be explained easily enough; Darwin mentioned several in the linked chapter. Eldredge and Gould later expounded on the concept with their theory of Punctuated Equilibrium.

However, assume for the moment that you felt all the current explanations were insufficient. How does the fossil record, as it exists, support the special creation of kinds? The Bible tells us that the creation event occurred within a short period - six days, per a literal reading. Yet, there is no “six day” demarcation within the fossil record. New forms arise, and disappear constantly throughout the entire record. This would imply that IF special creation were occurring, then it must have been a continuous process. Yet the basic premise of special creation depends on a literal reading of the Genesis, which brings us back to the fact that it must have happened over six days (or, at the very least, over six discrete intervals). So, if creation were continuous, we can’t rely on a literal reading of Genesis. Yet, if we can’t rely on a literal reading of Genesis, then we must call into qeustion the entire concept of special creation.

Furthermore, we have the Noachian flood event. If we again rely on a literal reading, this event has consequences of its own with respect to the how the fossil record ought to appear. We should see a migration of all terrestrial animals from a central point - the landing spot of the Ark. Biogeographical patterns, as well as the fossil record, do not support such a single-point migration. So, again, the appearance of the fossil record does not mesh with a literal reading of Genesis.

All of this neglects the fact that you have not defined “kind” sufficiently to be able to use the fossil record as evidence of their special creation in the first place. Is Archaeopteryx a separate kind from what we call dromaeosaurs? Is it a separate kind from birds? Is a horse a separate kind from a zebra? How can we identify kinds morphologically?

Soup, happy 1K:)

Ok I might be getting slightly confused about the subject we’re discussing, but hopefully this is what you’re looking for:

I remember watching a video being pro-creationist. There was alot of information, but right now I only remember a part.

One form of evidence showed that a fossil of a dinosaur and man was found together. The argument was that evolution states that dinosaurs and men never existed at the same time. Maybe mammoths and so forth yes, but not dinosaurs. Man came to exist in a completely different era after.

Second, (and you can do research into this because I don’t know the numbers), if the world/solar is as old as evolution claims it is, life would not have been possible. Right now scientists have calculated that the sun is shrinking at some rate I do not know. But if it existed millions of years ago, its size would have been much greater. It’s size and gravitational power would have meant that the earth couldn’t have been habitable. Anyway, whatever, that’s for all you technical people to debate.

Finally, I’m sure there’s an explanation to this but I haven’t heard it yet. One postulate of science is that life cannot come from nothing- that is must come from pre-existing life. So how exactly did life “evolve into existence” according to evolution?

Never happened. There have been no fossils of dinosaurs found with those of humans. “Evolution” does not say that such has not occurred, a simple reading of the fossil record, even without an interpretation as to how the forms presented within arose, will demonstrate as much.

Over the lifetime of the sun, given its current rate of loss of mass, it has lost roughly the equivalent of the mass of the Earth itself. Or, to put it another way, the sun has not changed size in any signifacnt way since its furnace started. See here.

You are probably thinking of the Law of Biogenesis, which states that living things arise from other living things. It is not, and was never m,eant to be, a atsatement about how life arose in the first place. It is meant as a counter to the idea of spontaneous generation, which itself refers to where whole organisms come from.

It’s obviosuly late… "never m,eant to be, a atsatement " = “never meant to be, a statement”

Abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution anyway.

I am torn between the two. I believe God created heaven, earth and life. I also believe we evolved. And my thinking is, since God is all powerful, why couldn’t he have created evolution? I mean it makes sence to me. God did his work in the six “days” and then rested, then why couldn’t his intent be to let us evolve and morph to survive the changes?

The tracks found at the Paluxy River site that were identified as “human” have been shown to be tracks of a dinosaur and even the Institute for Creation Research has acknowledged that point. Unfortunately, several other Creationist authors have not been quite so scrupulous and continue to produce books and films that pretend that the elongated tracks are “human.”

The “shrinking sun” is simply a lie told by various pro-Creationist authors who have an agenda to maintain. It may be based on the original calculations of Lord Kelvin who calculated the amount of mass that had to be burning off to produce the heat that the sun was giving off. However, Lord Kelvin’s calculations were computed before nuclear reactions were understood and were based on the notion that the sun was burning like an enormous lump of coal. Since it has been recognized that the sun’s source of energy is nuclear reaction, Lord Kelvin’s computations have been retired as irrelevant (with no insult to Lord Kelvin, who could not have known about nuclear energy). Unfortunately, some less-than-honest Creationists continue to cite Lord Kelvin’s numbers, even though the entire scientific community recognizes that they are in error.

Regarding Life-from-non-life: We do not (yet) know how that actually occurred (and we may never know). However, that event, called abiogenesis, is not part of evolutionary theory. Regardless how life initially arose on earth, the Theory of Evolution deals only with the manner in which life has diversified since the origin of life. Even if we never discover how life began, we have a verey good understanding of how living beings operate as species and how mutations and environmental precssures result in changes to those species subsequent to that initial event of life coming into existence.

Thinking this one over, I suspect that it is a misunderstanding of Louis Pasteur’s work. Pasteur proved (in a limited environmment) that various harmful bacteria were not being “spontaneously generated” (contrary to the belief, held from the time of Aristotle, that some minor life forms “arose from dust”). Pasteur showed that the bacteria that was destroying the wine-making process (and, later, the bacteria that was spoiling milk) were actually being placed into the grape juice and the milk from existing colonies of bacteria through unsanitary handling practices. This was a major scientific advance, because it threw down the notion that the spoiling “bugs” were arising all on their own.

However, it is important to note what Pasteur did and did not establish. He did establish that the same specific bacterium, that arose over and over again in batch after batch of wine or milk, was being bred from earlier ancestors. It was not arising from “spontaneous generation.” However, he did not prove that non-life could never give rise to life. He only proved that if the same animal appears time after time, it is being introduced from outside sources, because successive generations of the same animal are spread by the normal generative process, not arising independently.

However, when we discuss abiogenesis, we are not talking about some species of critter arising over and over again from nothing. Instead, we are talking about some sort of life form that needed to come into being only one time, after which its own development would eventually lead to successor generations that would diversify and expand over the globe. We have not yet discovered how that actually happened, but Pasteur never addressed that issue, and certainly never disproved it.

You’re describing something close to theistic evolution- a model which does not necessarily conflict with science (especially if you take the “six days” as allegorical). It is perfectly reasonable to both believe in God and accept evolution. It requires a non-literal interpretation of Genesis, though, and that is an obstacle for some.

As has been pointed out already, evolutionary theory does not tell us how the ball got rolling (and abiogenesis is still a legitimate mystery in that we can formulate some reasonable hypotheses but we can’t test them), it only tells us what happened after it got rolling.

answer this…if all the evolution theories are correct explain this, how could water creatures have succesully made it to land? it obviously takes time to evolve and its bit by bit, but if it got lungs it wouldn’t be able to move, if it got legs it wouldn’t be able to breath, if it got both it wuold dry up, if it got all of that the eggs would die, there are so many traits that have to be in an animal at the same time that if by themselves would allow the animal to die not be able to reproduce pass on DNA and evolve. so animals must have been created with the adaptations needed to survive.