# A challenge to any Christian: before condemning me to hell, go get waterboarded **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 23, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935 "2011-05-23T19:03:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/41 "2011-05-23T22:14:42Z")
> [@Cort](#): > > I can only restate the OP. Hell, as commonly defined by millions upon millions of American Evangelical Christians, is a place of eternal torment. Correct > [@](#): > > That this idea is utterly incompatible with the notion of a loving God doesn’t seem to trouble them. God works in mysterious ways. > [@](#): > > Assuming they are not sociopaths, there is only one explanation for this. They simply haven’t taken the trouble to expend any intellectual energy on what eternal torment might actually _feel_ like, in which case a stint on the waterboard may disabuse them of their naivete. False dichotomy. Christians, as a general rule, don’t expect to understand why God does what he does. It should also be noted that we have any number of people in the US military who have been waterboarded as part of their training. If you have any evidence that the experience has significantly changed the religious beliefs of any of these people, that would be an interesting piece of evidence in support of your argument. > [@](#): > > The OP makes a good point in a powerful fashion. He makes the same stupid point that has been done dozens of times on this MB, usually in GD. > [@](#): > > I think you are reacting to the stridency of his language more than the underlying logic of his argument, which is consistent with the beliefs of his targets. I am reacting to the fact that there have been dozens and dozens of attempts to “reason” people out of their religious beliefs on this MB, and none has worked. There is nothing new in this OP and his approach to the subject. > [@](#): > > It’s a common response from those who operate under the mistaken premise that a winning argument must necessarily be deft and riven with subtle nuance, when instead it need only be marginally less barbaric and cretinous than the savage bronze aged nonsense against which it is deployed. My response is based on empirical evidence and the knowledge that religious belief is almost universally impervious to logic. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/42 "2011-05-23T22:15:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The real question for Christians who believe in Hell is whether eternal damnation is consistent with a benevolent God. The answer is spoilered below: > > Nope. I suspect, and I won’t know till I get there, being without God is hell. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/43 "2011-05-23T22:18:22Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > This is a public challenge to all the Born Again Atheists ™ out there to stop being total douchebags. You do not have all the fucking answers. Grow the fuck up. But I don’t claim to, and that’s kind of the point. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/44 "2011-05-23T22:18:32Z")
It’s still God’s choice to be with or without somebody. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/45 "2011-05-23T22:21:23Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > This is a public challenge to all the Born Again Atheists ™ out there to stop being total douchebags. You do not have all the fucking answers. Grow the fuck up. You should be screaming this at religionists. They’re the ones who think they have all the answers. You’re mad at the wrong people here. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/46 "2011-05-23T22:21:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The real question for Christians who believe in Hell is whether eternal damnation is consistent with a benevolent God. The answer is spoilered below: > > Nope. I agree with you with one _possible_ exception, that God may condemn a aspect of Himself to eternal damnation but not a created being. Though sending someone to Hell for a shorter stay is within the realm of possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/47 "2011-05-23T22:24:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You should be screaming this at religionists. They’re the ones who think they have all the answers. You’re mad at the wrong people here. When religionists start threads claiming to have all the answers, folks like **Oakminster** , you and I do scream at them. It’s not an either/or situation. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/48 "2011-05-23T22:26:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > When religionists start threads claiming to have all the answers, folks like **Oakminster** , you and I do scream at them. It’s not an either/or situation. Any reason to assume that the OP was just talking about the SDMB and not the billions in media that is constantly assaulting every non-christian in the country? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/49 "2011-05-23T22:29:44Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Any reason to assume that the OP was just talking about the SDMB and not the billions in media that is constantly assaulting every non-christian in the country? > > -Joe No. Any reason to assume that I would have been assuming that when I responded to **Dio** ’s comment on **Oakminster** ’s post? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/50 "2011-05-23T22:36:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I am reacting to the fact that there have been dozens and dozens of attempts to “reason” people out of their religious beliefs on this MB, and none has worked. There is nothing new in this OP and his approach to the subject. > > . I seem to recall a thread a year or two back where more than a few former religious people did indeed credit the arguments on SDMB for their final push to reason. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/51 "2011-05-23T22:40:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You should be screaming this at religionists. They’re the ones who think they have all the answers. You’re mad at the wrong people here. Perhaps you over looked the part of my post that says I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/52 "2011-05-23T22:42:50Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I seem to recall a thread a year or two back where more than a few former religious people did indeed credit the arguments on SDMB for their final push to reason. A few? And maybe what you are saying is correct, but I can guarantee you that it wasn’t accomplished as a “gotcha” type argument, per this OP. And I’d be surprised if any of those converts were Evangelical Christians, as noted in the post I was responding to. People who take the Bible (almost) literally, and believe in hell as a place of eternal torment. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/53 "2011-05-23T22:50:20Z")
Just out of curiosity, how many people have condemned you to hell so far, say, in the last month or so? ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/54 "2011-05-23T23:11:24Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > You could actually post this, and not post a [link](http://www.getoutofhellfree.com/)? Better keep one handy, you’re gonna need it! :eek: Seek, and ye shall find. I’m all set. I got a whole box of 'em. I used to pass them out at Dopefests I attended. ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheField](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@LilyoftheField](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheField)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/55 "2011-05-23T23:15:11Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Just out of curiosity, how many people have condemned you to hell so far, say, in the last month or so? Because if it was less than seven, your argument is clearly invalid. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/56 "2011-05-23T23:44:56Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > Seek, and ye shall find. I didn’t have to seek. I know the URL off the top of my head. It’s the rest of the poor schmucks who need them that would have to seek. I did my religious duty and saved them the trouble. You should have, too, or Randy may take vengeance upon you and charge you double for your next set, for not sending more buyers his way. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/57 "2011-05-24T00:02:56Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > I didn’t have to seek. I know the URL off the top of my head. It’s the rest of the poor schmucks who need them that would have to seek. I did my religious duty and saved them the trouble. You should have, too, or Randy may take vengeance upon you and charge you double for your next set, for not sending more buyers his way. In all honesty, I meant to add the URL, and then for some reason checked myself. Maybe an evangelical put an evil eye on me. I’d better get a card! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/58 "2011-05-24T00:09:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > When religionists start threads claiming to have all the answers, folks like **Oakminster** , you and I do scream at them. It’s not an either/or situation. This OP doesn’t claim to have any answers, and there’s a qualitative difference anyway between telling people to believe in magic and telling people to use thir fucking heads. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/59 "2011-05-24T00:10:19Z")
> [@Omegaman](#): > > Perhaps you over looked the part of my post that says I don’t know. I wasn’t talking about you. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/60 "2011-05-24T01:00:18Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > I think you’re late to the party. This has been covered in Scylla’s classic thread: [thread=448717] **I waterboard!** [/thread] Wait a minute! I can tell him to go to hell? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935.md?page=4)