# A challenge to any Christian: before condemning me to hell, go get waterboarded **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 23, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935 "2011-05-23T19:03:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/101 "2011-05-25T10:39:38Z")
**Dio** , stop lying yourself. You disparaged religion in this very thread. You told Oakminster that he shouldn’t disparage atheists but “religionists.” That’s people who practice a religion. Just because you told someone else to do it for you doesn’t mean you are guilty. And, yes, I’m aware of the other possible interpretations. But you have no problem calling the other poster a liar rather than assume they have misinterpreted you, so I offer you the same courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/102 "2011-05-25T10:50:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Do you know for certain that there are no smurfs? Do you get butthurt if someone says the Keebler elves aren’t real. > > This “you don’t know” shit is fatuous. what I DO know is that there has never been either any demonstrated evidence or necessity for sky gods. I therefore assume that they don’t exist until someone shows me a reason to assume otherwise. Saying “you don’t know” is philosophically vaccuous unless you’re willing to get just as indignant if people say there is no Flying Spaghetti Monster. You aren’t making a point. You aren’t stopping anybody in their tracks or pointing out a weakness. You’re just loudly demonstrating a lack of critical thinking ability. No, he isn’t. People don’t act like assholes either when people tell them there are smurfs. People don’t say that someone who believes in them needs to go get waterboarded. People don’t say that believing in smurfs caused all the evil in the world. And you are continually repeating a logical fallacy that is extremely popular in atheism. You do have to defend a negative. Whoever makes the claim has the burden of proof. As I pointed out before, I can say there is no gravity. I can say that you don’t exist. I can make a lot of negative claims, but, because my audience isn’t convinced that they are true, they are useless without providing evidence. And everyone instinctively knows this, as, when you claim that God doesn’t exist, you always wind up offering evidence. The OP did here in the form of an apparent inconsistency: how can a loving God send people to hell? BTW, as a Christian, I read the Bible, agree with you that Hell as we mean it today isn’t in there, and actually accept the argument that a loving God could not punish people for eternity. The purpose of punishment is rehabilitation, and it is God’s will that all men shall be saved. Being omnipotent, that means it will happen. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/103 "2011-05-25T12:23:28Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh yeah? Let’s see them. I want links. :dubious: The two are Scylla (who went ahead to defend “Any answer is better than no answer” as a stance) and ClassyLadyhp (I think you _know_ this one…). > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > 😕 > > So, Mr. Been-Here-Three-Days, I don’t think we’ve been properly introduced. Tell us about all the lurking you did before signing up, that you’re knowledgeable enough to make that assertion (and yet somehow NOT knowledgeable enough to avoid issuing your challenge to _all_ Christians, many of whom do not accept the existence of a Dante-esque _Inferno_). I’ll retract the statement, or rather revise it: we have two stupid trolls and at least one of them believes in a serious hell. But as to your other sentence, it’s _covered in the title_: “before condemning me to hell”. > [@](#): > > Welcome to the Dope, btw. Even if your OP _is_ kinda dumb. 🙂 Fair enough. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/104 "2011-05-25T12:26:53Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > The two are Scylla …who has been waterboarded. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/105 "2011-05-25T12:32:16Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > …who has been waterboarded. 😉 I saw the OP of thread. Many a hearty laugh was had. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/106 "2011-05-25T13:14:53Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > **Dio** , stop lying yourself. You disparaged religion in this very thread. You told Oakminster that he shouldn’t disparage atheists but “religionists.” That’s people who practice a religion. This is incorrect. “Religionist” does not mean merely religious. It refers only to religious _zealots_. Look it up. Disparaging religious _zealotry_ is not disparaging religion. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/107 "2011-05-25T13:30:28Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No, he isn’t. People don’t act like assholes either when people tell them there are smurfs. People don’t say that someone who believes in them needs to go get waterboarded. People don’t say that believing in smurfs caused all the evil in the world. This is of absolutely no relevance to my point, which had nothing to do with the OP. It was a response to the always fatuous notion “you can’t PROVE there are no sky gods” is a meaningful reason not to assume they don’t exist. > [@](#): > > And you are continually repeating a logical fallacy that is extremely popular in atheism. You do have to defend a negative. Whoever makes the claim has the burden of proof. The claim is that sky gods exist. Non-existence is the null. The null does not have to be proven, it is assumed. > [@](#): > > As I pointed out before, I can say there is no gravity. I can say that you don’t exist. I can make a lot of negative claims, but, because my audience isn’t convinced that they are true, they are useless without providing evidence. Those are not negative claims, they are alternate hypotheses for observed phenomena. They are _positive_ claims. > [@](#): > > And everyone instinctively knows this, as, when you claim that God doesn’t exist, you always wind up offering evidence. I have never claimed outright that gods don’t exist, nor have I ever tried to offer evidence. That would be impossible. > [@](#): > > The OP did here in the form of an apparent inconsistency: how can a loving God send people to hell? That’s an argument against Hell, not against God, and it’s not offering “negatove evidence” anyway to point out flaws or logical inconsistencies in the God hypothesis, just showing that you haven’t overcome the null. > [@](#): > > BTW, as a Christian, I read the Bible, agree with you that Hell as we mean it today isn’t in there, and actually accept the argument that a loving God could not punish people for eternity. The purpose of punishment is rehabilitation, and it is God’s will that all men shall be saved. Being omnipotent, that means it will happen. The only thing an omnimax God logically needs to save people _from_ is himself. Nothing else can logically be a threat to them. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/108 "2011-05-25T13:33:35Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > BTW, as a Christian, I read the Bible, agree with you that Hell as we mean it today isn’t in there, and actually accept the argument that a loving God could not punish people for eternity. The purpose of punishment is rehabilitation, and it is God’s will that all men shall be saved. Being omnipotent, that means it will happen. Omnipotent beings don’t need to rehabilitate people. They make people correct the first time. That is if they are _all loving_. In any case, the God depicted in the bible isn’t omnipotent. He asks questions, works through intermediaries and took six days and needed to rest after creating the universe. An omnipotent being doesn’t need to do any of that. An omnipotent and all-benevolent being also doesn’t create parasites that blind children or cancer. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/109 "2011-05-25T13:45:16Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Omnipotent beings don’t need to rehabilitate people. They make people correct the first time. That is if they are _all loving_. > > In any case, the God depicted in the bible isn’t omnipotent. He asks questions, works through intermediaries and took six days and needed to rest after creating the universe. An omnipotent being doesn’t need to do any of that. An omnipotent and all-benevolent being also doesn’t create parasites that blind children or cancer. QFT. The next step in the Religious Dance of Justification is to then claim that God has a bigger plan then we mere mortals can fathom and, therefore, anything we percieve as ‘mistakes’ are really some cog in a hyper-intelligent plan that we do see or understand. ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/110 "2011-05-25T14:59:43Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I don’t think it’s really, uhh, _perspicacious_ to hold onto the idea that anything of **Dio** ’s can be described as “humble,” particularly his forgiveness… > 😛 You got a point there. A dog and his bone.😃 ---
**Author:** ![puddin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b5ac83/32.png) [@puddin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddin)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/111 "2011-05-25T15:39:04Z")
I try to ignore all religious blurbs, but a soldier who was waterboarded, (along with his whole outfit) told me to experience the sensation just stand in your shower with your back to the nozzle , raise your head and drizzle water on your head over the nose & mouth. You get an involuntary gasp, even its only a second. It’s a terrible sensation , but your not dying. “stop human suffering…end marriage” - W.C. Fields ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/112 "2011-05-25T16:24:51Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Yes, but they are _saying_ that they hope I will burn in eternal torture for all eternity. If that isn’t fucked up, I don’t know what is. Forcing you to listen for hours on end as they doggedly try to save you from that fate? FWIW, I’ve never had anyone personally state they hope I burn in hell for all eternity, but I’ve had many people say that they were sad that I was going to burn in hell. Of course, I don’t judge others beliefs or try to push mine on them so maybe I don’t get the same negative replies. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/113 "2011-05-25T16:34:41Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Omnipotent beings don’t need to rehabilitate people. They make people correct the first time. That is if they are _all loving_. > > In any case, the God depicted in the bible isn’t omnipotent. He asks questions, works through intermediaries and took six days and needed to rest after creating the universe. An omnipotent being doesn’t need to do any of that. An omnipotent and all-benevolent being also doesn’t create parasites that blind children or cancer. Why would you assume that omnipotence leads to benevolence? I see no reason to think that. I’m referring to the first paragraph. In the second, you add in all-benevolent so maybe you meant that in the first paragraph as well. If you did, why would you assume the God of christianity to be all benevolent? He even says he’s a vengeful God and old testament smiting was something he didn’t seem troubled with. All benevolence would work contrary to the ‘believe or else’ theology since without a non-benevolent ‘or else’ then what would be the point? Lastly I’ve always figured that creating something with free will and allowing that free will to be exercised is pretty much giving up omnipotence even if you’re only doing it temporarily. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/114 "2011-05-25T17:08:45Z")
> [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](#): > > Why would you assume that omnipotence leads to benevolence? I see no reason to think that. I’m referring to the first paragraph. In the second, you add in all-benevolent so maybe you meant that in the first paragraph as well. Omnipotence has no need for benevolence. But Christians for some reason believe their god to be all-loving. > [@](#): > > If you did, why would you assume the God of christianity to be all benevolent? He even says he’s a vengeful God and old testament smiting was something he didn’t seem troubled with. All benevolence would work contrary to the ‘believe or else’ theology since without a non-benevolent ‘or else’ then what would be the point? Ask Christians. As I say, it is obvious that their God, if he exists, is a terrible being and I would sooner worship a San Acitos Dirt Shrew. > [@](#): > > Lastly I’ve always figured that creating something with free will and allowing that free will to be exercised is pretty much giving up omnipotence even if you’re only doing it temporarily. This is a little unclear. Are you saying the Christian God is giving up his omnipotence to give us free will? If he’s omnipotent, he can create us to do whatever he wants. If he wanted a world of justice and minimal suffering he could have created us so that our instincts would lead to that world. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/115 "2011-05-25T17:23:23Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > This is a little unclear. Are you saying the Christian God is giving up his omnipotence to give us free will? > > If he’s omnipotent, he can create us to do whatever he wants. If he wanted a world of justice and minimal suffering he could have created us so that our instincts would lead to that world. If we were given true free will he could not create us to do whatever he wants or there really wouldn’t be any free will. Isn’t that what christians believe the angels are, created creatures without free will? Maybe he was just bored and wanted to work with something that didn’t always do as expected. Of course, that would mean he wouldn’t be omniscient but I never got that one anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/116 "2011-05-25T17:33:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Does reading a really stupid OP in the Pit count as torture? Because that’s one of the stupidest I’ve read in awhile. Shit, even the title of this thread infected me with stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/117 "2011-05-25T17:38:08Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Omnipotence has no need for benevolence. But Christians for some reason believe their god to be all-loving. > > Ask Christians. As I say, it is obvious that their God, if he exists, is a terrible being and I would sooner worship a San Acitos Dirt Shrew. I agree with the second paragraph. To indulge in a bit of fantasy, lets consider the myth for a moment. In the old testament there is no belief in all benevolence. That’s where the fire and brimstone is in the bible. Fear is a common tool to train and discipline others and since you can’t just make them do something I could see leading them to think you were a hard ass disciplinarian who doles out his infinite love only to those who deserve it. That wasn’t working though. You can’t coerce love ( and why is that so important to him btw? ) and what’s the point of orderly if you’re trying to get something to love you that has a choice. Heck, even some of the angels without free will didn’t love him. Also, there needed to be an out. If you’re just some god who will smite any who disobey you without fail, once someone has done that, good luck getting them back. They’re already screwed on that deal so you have to be forgiving else you can’t get them back in line. They need to believe in a second chance. How do you sell that once you’ve taken on the roll of angry vengeful hardass? You reinvent yourself as a loving god who only smites the evildoers once and only after every possible chance at getting them to do it willingly has failed. Thus, you give everyone the forgiveness card but only if they play it. It’s good almost for all eternity though so it’s really a generous offer. To answer your question more directly though, I think it’s important to believe your god is all loving or you’d have to face the reality of your second point. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/118 "2011-05-25T17:53:10Z")
I never thought of **Scylla** as a hardcore fundie. A rightwing conservative, yeah. But never as a fundie. The OP should have been here when we had **Joe Cool** , **Jersey Diamond** \*, **His4Ever** and **Wildest Bill**. His head would have exploded. As for me, I’m religious, I guess, in that I believe in god, but not really in any particular religion. What do I win? \*I heard from some Dopers – can’t remember who – that **Jersey** later divorced **Joe** and came out of the closet. And sent out some e-mails appologizing for her behavior. If she was a closeted lesbian, it would probably explain why she might have been extra hostile. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/119 "2011-05-25T19:56:32Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > On this very board, the Born Again Atheist ™ crowd frequently asserts that there is no god. They do not know this for certain, in fact, it is not possible for them to know this for certain. The only possible way to answer that question is to die, and experience whatever death is for oneself. > > I happen to be an atheist…but I realize I could be wrong. So could you. When does it end? When am I not going to be considered an idiot for forthrightly dismissing someone’s claim that something not proved to exist, exists because I can’t demonstrably prove it doesn’t exist? The Three-headed Sausage King? The Infinity-footed Peanut Butter Cyclops? Would it be reasonable for me, according to you, to assert that there are no such beings, or am I being a total douche-bag without all the answers who should grow up? Mind you, I am all those things anyway, so it’s not necessarily relevant to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheField](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@LilyoftheField](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheField)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/120 "2011-05-25T19:58:05Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Shit, even the title of this thread infected me with stupid. Oh, c’mon - you’re really going to blame the thread??? 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935.md?page=7)