# A challenge to any Christian: before condemning me to hell, go get waterboarded **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 23, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935 "2011-05-23T19:03:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/121 "2011-05-26T01:03:28Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I happen to be an atheist…but I realize I could be wrong. So could you. Wouldn’t that make you more of an agnostic? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/122 "2011-05-26T01:17:49Z")
No, agnosticism is not a position on the existence of gods, but a position on what it’s possible to _prove_ about the existence of gods. Specifically, it is the position that we do not have sufficient data to prove the existence of gods one way or the other. That does not preclude a position on existence, though. One can be agnostic and still also be theistic (I believe in God, but I know it can’t be proven) or atheistic (I can’t prove gods don’t exist, but I’m personally certain that they don’t). Agnosticism often gets conflated with weak atheism (the lack of theistic belief, but not a positive assertion that gods can’t exist). A positive position that gods don’t/can’t exist is “strong atheism,” but most self-identified atheists (including Richard Dawkins) are not strong atheists. Incidentally, the “I ackowledge that I could be wrong” sniffiness has just as much application to smurfs as it does to gods. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/123 "2011-05-26T06:06:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, agnosticism is not a position on the existence of gods, but a position on what it’s possible to _prove_ about the existence of gods. Specifically, it is the position that we do not have sufficient data to prove the existence of gods one way or the other. I’d say that agnosticism isn’t so much the belief that we don’t have enough evidence to prove or disprove the existence of gods, but rather that the existence of gods is inherently unprovable. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/124 "2011-05-26T17:47:17Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > That’s not how I remember it. I thought he said he would find it funny to see atheists who declare with 100% certainty that there is no God pee their pants at the sight of Him. I assumed it was with the understanding that they would all get into Heaven anyway. > > I could be wrong. I could be wrong as well. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/125 "2011-05-26T18:02:32Z")
DO you need to pee when you’re in Heaven? I would think you can eat and drink all you want, and you never have to go to the bathroom. ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/126 "2011-05-27T09:34:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I am reacting to the fact that there have been dozens and dozens of attempts to “reason” people out of their religious beliefs on this MB, and none has worked. Are you sure? Just because some people keep arguing doesn’t mean other people aren’t influenced. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/127 "2011-05-27T14:01:29Z")
So, if hell isn’t in the Bible, where do they get this idea from? Anyway, I get a taste of hell every day. My roommate has become addicted to “The View”. Give me brimstone any day. ---
**Author:** ![blueskiesfrompain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@blueskiesfrompain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blueskiesfrompain)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/128 "2011-05-27T14:21:20Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Omnipotent beings don’t need to rehabilitate people. **They make people correct the first time.** That is if they are _all loving_. What if he did? And what if he correctly left it up to us to decide if we approved of the arrangement? And if we rejected it and walked away, doesn’t that make us responsible for all the misery in the world? And if there is no god, then we have been responsible since the beginning anyway, whenever and however that happened. Either way, we’ve let the opportunity to nurture the garden slip through our fingers. _bold=me_ ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/129 "2011-05-27T14:24:24Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > This is a public challenge to all the Born Again Atheists ™ out there to stop being total douchebags. You do not have all the fucking answers. Grow the fuck up. Yea. But we recognise when there ain’t even a damn question. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/130 "2011-05-27T14:47:30Z")
> [@blueskiesfrompain](#): > > What if he did? And what if he correctly left it up to us to decide if we approved of the arrangement? And if we rejected it and walked away, doesn’t that make us responsible for all the misery in the world? No, because omnipotence includes omniscience. So he’d know he was creating us to suffer. So obviously he isn’t then omni-benevolent. Which is fine, but Christians keep insisting that their imaginary friend is both. > [@](#): > > And if there is no god, then we have been responsible since the beginning anyway, whenever and however that happened. We aren’t responsible for cancer or parasites that blind children. But that said, responsibility doesn’t matter. > [@](#): > > Either way, we’ve let the opportunity to nurture the garden slip through our fingers. > > _bold=me_ ---
**Author:** ![blueskiesfrompain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@blueskiesfrompain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blueskiesfrompain)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/131 "2011-05-27T15:06:26Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No, because omnipotence includes omniscience. So he’d know he was creating us to suffer. So obviously he isn’t then omni-benevolent. Which is fine, but Christians keep insisting that their imaginary friend is both. No, he created us to _choose._ His knowing how we would choose makes the choice no less ours. > [@Lobohan](#): > > We aren’t responsible for cancer or parasites that blind children. But that said, responsibility doesn’t matter. Responsibility is everything. We can’t fathom what we have done to the food chain, for example, and the negative effect it has on our health. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/132 "2011-05-27T15:48:02Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > So, if hell isn’t in the Bible, where do they get this idea from? Norse mythology, and Dante. Hell is, of course, in the bible. It just isn’t a place of eternal torment, it’s a place of destruction. Whether it’s literal or metaphorical is left as an exercise to the reader. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/133 "2011-05-27T16:59:39Z")
> [@blueskiesfrompain](#): > > No, he created us to _choose._ His knowing how we would choose makes the choice no less ours. he created us (if you believe that sort of thing) knowing that we’d have flaws that lead to eternal torment. An all loving creature wouldn’t make another creature destined to suffer forever if he could help it. > [@](#): > > Responsibility is everything. We can’t fathom what we have done to the food chain, for example, and the negative effect it has on our health. You mean like how we live longer and healthier lives than at any point in history? ---
**Author:** ![blueskiesfrompain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@blueskiesfrompain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blueskiesfrompain)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/134 "2011-05-27T21:03:51Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > he created us (if you believe that sort of thing) knowing that we’d have flaws that lead to eternal torment. An all loving creature wouldn’t make another creature destined to suffer forever if he could help it. If we were created with flaws for which we were condemned, regardless of our decisions, I would agree. It makes more sense to not believe in god rather than to believe in a flawed god creating flawed things. But, I think you’re blaming the god you don’t believe in for our flaws. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/135 "2011-05-27T21:22:42Z")
God created our flaws, but that’s really not even the issue. The issue is that God doesn’t have to condemn anybody and does so gratuitously. ---
**Author:** ![blueskiesfrompain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@blueskiesfrompain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blueskiesfrompain)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/136 "2011-05-27T21:45:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > God created our flaws, but that’s really not even the issue. The issue is that God doesn’t have to condemn anybody and does so gratuitously. If you’re a Christian, that is bad theology. If you’re a naturalist, evolution has no explanation for schadenfreude (or many of our other flaws, for that matter). We choose. If you do believe in god, why do you believe that he should be good? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/137 "2011-05-28T01:22:23Z")
> [@blueskiesfrompain](#): > > If you’re a Christian, that is bad theology. > > If you’re a naturalist, evolution has no explanation for schadenfreude (or many of our other flaws, for that matter). You do realize that people can be Christians and still believe in evolution, right? :dubious: And the rest of you, theist doesn’t automatically = Christian. That seems to be the default position around here. You know, I’m going to start my own religion. The “Believe what you want, just don’t be a jackass about it” religion. ---
**Author:** ![blueskiesfrompain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@blueskiesfrompain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blueskiesfrompain)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/138 "2011-05-28T11:39:52Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You do realize that people can be Christians and still believe in evolution, right? :dubious: Absolutely, though Christianity provides a better explanation than evolution for some of mankind’s conduct. Schadenfreude is an illogical result of natural selection. In the rest of the animal kingdom, what is the equivalent of waterboarding? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/139 "2011-05-28T12:54:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Norse mythology Whut now ? Norse mythology has Hel (note spelling), but it has precious little to do with the stereotypical lake of fire/pitchfork demon torture of the popular Christian Hell. If anything it’s closer to the Hades of the Greeks/Romans: a place of silence and shadows where the people who didn’t make it to Valhalla & Folkvangr shuffle about after they’ve died, presumably bored out of their skulls. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/140 "2011-05-28T14:57:14Z")
Schadenfreude is a natural emotional response to seeing a perceived enemy/rival/threat be taken down. I don’t get the waterboarding question at all. Are you saying that animals don’t torture, or are you saying they don’t torture for information? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935.md?page=8)