# A challenge to any Christian: before condemning me to hell, go get waterboarded **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 23, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935 "2011-05-23T19:03:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/141 "2011-05-28T15:35:45Z")
> [@blueskiesfrompain](#): > > Absolutely, though Christianity provides a better explanation than evolution for some of mankind’s conduct. No. It doesn’t. Not even slightly. > [@](#): > > Schadenfreude is an illogical result of natural selection. This shows a misunderstanding of how natural selection works. > [@](#): > > In the rest of the animal kingdom, what is the equivalent of waterboarding? In the rest of the animal kingdom, what is the equivalent of reading? We’re singular with our intelligence (at least on this planet). ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/142 "2011-05-28T16:47:53Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Whut now ? Norse mythology has Hel (note spelling), but it has precious little to do with the stereotypical lake of fire/pitchfork demon torture of the popular Christian Hell. > If anything it’s closer to the Hades of the Greeks/Romans: a place of silence and shadows where the people who didn’t make it to Valhalla & Folkvangr shuffle about after they’ve died, presumably bored out of their skulls. The idea of an underworld beneath us, literally, where people exist for some amount of time after death is pagan, not biblical. The popular idea of hell is obviously vastly different from the ones in norse or classical mythology, but arguably closer to those than to the biblical idea of total destruction. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/143 "2011-05-28T21:14:50Z")
> [@blueskiesfrompain](#): > > Absolutely, though Christianity provides a better explanation than evolution for some of mankind’s conduct. Considering that I learned about evolution and all of that in a Catholic school, I find that amusing. > [@](#): > > Schadenfreude is an illogical result of natural selection. Do you even know what “schadenfreude” means? > [@](#): > > In the rest of the animal kingdom, what is the equivalent of waterboarding? Ever watch a cat kill a mouse or a bird? That’s probably it. ---
**Author:** ![1127](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ecccb3/32.png) [@1127](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1127)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/144 "2011-05-29T02:07:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > …You know, I’m going to start my own religion. The “Believe what you want, just don’t be a jackass about it” religion. Will that be tax exempt status religion? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/145 "2011-05-29T02:12:40Z")
> [@1127](#): > > Will that be tax exempt status religion? Sure, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Apollon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Apollon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollon)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/146 "2011-05-31T21:39:54Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > You’re quite the busy little bumblebee since joining this month. What do you mean by that? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/147 "2011-05-31T22:07:39Z")
> [@Cort](#): > > It’s a brilliant OP. This is standard Evangelist dogma. Accept Jesus or go to Hell. The OP is merely asking the Evangelicals to consider what that really means, and whether a loving God could do that. Yeah, I think the OP is onto something. Too many times we discount others’ suffering. ---
**Author:** ![blueskiesfrompain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@blueskiesfrompain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blueskiesfrompain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/148 "2011-06-01T00:21:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Schadenfreude is a natural emotional response to seeing a perceived enemy/rival/threat be taken down. > [@Lobohan](#): > > This \*[Schadenfreude is an illogical result of natural selection.] \*shows a misunderstanding of how natural selection works. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Do you even know what “schadenfreude” means? > [@](#): > > scha·den·freu·de   /ˈʃɑdnˌfrɔɪdə/ Show Spelled > [shahd-n-froi-duh] Show IPA > > –noun > satisfaction or pleasure felt at someone else’s misfortune. DtC ~ It could be me splitting hairs, but I think you’re off. Justice produces satisfaction, the elimination of danger produces relief. Misfortune, though, ought to generate compassion in us. Satisfaction at another’s [needless] suffering may be learned, but I’m not sure it’s natural. Lobohan ~ Even if that is true, Schadenfreude is a weakness of character, not a strength. Schedenfreude is the opposite of what we would consider noble in humanity. Schedenfreude possesses none of the survival skills perfected and passed on through countless generations that made us the big dog on the block in the animal kingdom. It is illogical to conclude that schadenfreude is a result of evolution. If that is so, its origins must lie elsewhere. Guinastasia ~ Yes. ---
**Author:** ![blueskiesfrompain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@blueskiesfrompain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blueskiesfrompain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/149 "2011-06-01T00:41:02Z")
> [@blueskiesfrompain](#): > > In the rest of the animal kingdom, what is the equivalent of waterboarding? > [@Lobohan](#): > > In the rest of the animal kingdom, what is the equivalent of reading? We’re singular with our intelligence (at least on this planet). Required reading for those of us singular in our intelligence: If you poison your water, you will die. If you poison your food, you will die. If you stockpile weapons of mass destruction, someone will use them and you will die. If you trivialize human life, genocide and infanticide will eventually create a list that you will be on, and you will die. If you allow governments to remain unaccountable, you will die. See where I’m going with this? Yes, of course we are singular in our intelligence, but where else in the animal kingdom does this level of self-destruction exist? > [@blueskiesfrompain](#): > > In the rest of the animal kingdom, what is the equivalent of waterboarding? > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Ever watch a cat kill a mouse or a bird? That’s probably it. What a relief! After almost 8 years of listening to progressives call for Bush (43) to be tried as a war criminal for defending the United States use torture (waterboarding), I’m glad to now know they had their panties in a twist over nothing. Thanks for clearing it up, I shall sleep better tonight! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/150 "2011-06-01T02:17:06Z")
> [@blueskiesfrompain](#): > > DtC ~ It could be me splitting hairs, but I think you’re off. Justice produces satisfaction, the elimination of danger produces relief. Is there a difference? Assholes cause fight or flight responses. Assholes going down relieves fight or flight response. > [@](#): > > Misfortune, though, ought to generate compassion in us. Not if they deserve it. > [@](#): > > Satisfaction at another’s [needless] suffering may be learned, but I’m not sure it’s natural. What does “natural” mean? > [@](#): > > Schadenfreude is a weakness of character, not a strength. Says who? I see it as neutral. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/151 "2011-06-01T03:00:46Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I never thought of **Scylla** as a hardcore fundie. A rightwing conservative, yeah. But never as a fundie. > > The OP should have been here when we had **Joe Cool** , **Jersey Diamond** \*, **His4Ever** and **Wildest Bill**. His head would have exploded. > > As for me, I’m religious, I guess, in that I believe in god, but not really in any particular religion. What do I win? > > \*I heard from some Dopers – can’t remember who – that **Jersey** later divorced **Joe** and came out of the closet. And sent out some e-mails appologizing for her behavior. If she was a closeted lesbian, it would probably explain why she might have been extra hostile. I’m a fundie? ---
**Author:** ![blueskiesfrompain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@blueskiesfrompain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blueskiesfrompain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/152 "2011-06-01T03:21:26Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Is there a difference? Assholes cause fight or flight responses. Assholes going down relieves fight or flight response. Do you know people who are in a bind that are not assholes, who did not put themselves in a bad way through any fault of their own? Does their situation give you pleasure? That is the difference. > [@](#): > > Not if they deserve it. See above. > [@](#): > > Says who? I see it as neutral. Do you see society becoming more cynical, more violent, more unstable, more greedy, more partisan, less forgiving, less tolerant, less benevolent? If so, there’s nothing neutral about it. We’re moving in a particular direction. We choose. ---
**Author:** ![blueskiesfrompain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@blueskiesfrompain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blueskiesfrompain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/153 "2011-06-01T03:26:27Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I’m a fundie? Uh-oh, the F word. I recommend chocolate! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/154 "2011-06-01T05:13:44Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I’m a fundie? I didn’t say you were – I said you WEREN’T. Do try and keep up. **blueskiesfrompain** : I’m guessing you haven’t then. Cats are excessively cruel to their prey. They torture them, play with them and prolong their kill. Of course, cats are only doing what comes naturally to them, but you asked what the animal equivalant of waterboarding would be. I didn’t say it was the same thing as Bush doing it, dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![blueskiesfrompain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@blueskiesfrompain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blueskiesfrompain)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/155 "2011-06-01T23:16:28Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **blueskiesfrompain** : > > I’m guessing you haven’t then. Cats are excessively cruel to their prey. **They torture them** , play with them and prolong their kill. Of course, cats are only doing what comes naturally to them, but you asked what the animal equivalant of waterboarding would be. I didn’t say it was the same thing as Bush doing it, dumbass. I knew the cat thing would be somebody’s answer. Either that, or Great White Sharks flipping seals out of the water. It’s fun to watch cats play with their toys _the same way they play with their food,_ isn’t it? As toying with their food is impersonal, impartial, and with no goal other than the nutritional value of the mouse/bird/whatever, it hardly rises to the level of torture. I’m not sure there is an animal equivalent to waterboarding. We’re special to think of that. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/156 "2011-06-02T08:23:54Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Not even “declare with 100% certainty” - there are some atheists here who’ve loudly proclaimed that if God did turn out to exist they would kick the old fucker in the balls, and it was them that Friar Ted amusedly speculated on the possibility of their peeing themselves. Malacandra gets it completely correct & Lord Ashtar gets it mostly correct. I swear this story pops up time & again like the P&G Satanism story used to do. I was specifically addressing unnamed anti-theists (tho I think later I admitted I had the former Doper badchad & present one Der Trihs in mind) & specifically noted that I hoped for eventual reconciliation. I was not talking about the ordinary unbeliever, most of whom I think will go :smack: and then 😃 at the Beatific Vision. I do lean to thinking that truly horrible people, such as child abusers & serial killers/sex-criminals will go unreconciled & burn out of existence after an appropriate period of punishment, but I could be wrong about their unsavability or their eventually oblivion. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/157 "2011-06-22T11:59:41Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Malacandra gets it completely correct & Lord Ashtar gets it mostly correct. I swear this story pops up time & again like the P&G Satanism story used to do. I was specifically addressing unnamed anti-theists (tho I think later I admitted I had the former Doper badchad & present one Der Trihs in mind) & specifically noted that I hoped for eventual reconciliation. I was not talking about the ordinary unbeliever, most of whom I think will go :smack: and then 😃 at the Beatific Vision. > > I do lean to thinking that truly horrible people, such as child abusers & serial killers/sex-criminals will go unreconciled & burn out of existence after an appropriate period of punishment, but I could be wrong about their unsavability or their eventually oblivion. According to Genesis the punishment for sin was death…no mention of an eternal place of suffering! How does that fit in? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/158 "2011-06-22T15:54:08Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > According to Genesis the punishment for sin was death…no mention of an eternal place of suffering! How does that fit in? What about Luke 16:19-31, where the rich man who died is agony-stricken due to being surrounded by fire in the place of torment and so asks that Lazarus be allowed to dip a finger in water to cool his tongue – and he gets turned down on that request, and so begs instead that Lazarus warn his family so _ **they** _ won’t likewise wind up in said fiery place of torment? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/159 "2011-06-22T16:30:59Z")
Luke identifies that as Hades in the Greek, which is the standard translation for the Hebrew/Aramaic _Sheol_, which literally meant “grave” or “pit,” and which, in ancient Jewish belief was an abode for all the dead pending judgement day. That particular parable also says that Lazarus went to “the Bosom of Abraham” which is not Heaven, but the [good part of Sheol](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham). Essentially, Luke is referencing a Jewish eschatological belief in _Sheol_ as a temporary abode, a sort of holding tank, for souls waiting for the resurrection and judgement of the dead. This is a belief which grew to involve divisions for the good and the wicked, and where there was some temporary punishment for the baddies, but this place was not eternal. Eventually (under this eschatology) they’ll all get resurrected and judged, and then the bad people will just be annihilated. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935/160 "2011-06-28T11:39:54Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > What about Luke 16:19-31, where the rich man who died is agony-stricken due to being surrounded by fire in the place of torment and so asks that Lazarus be allowed to dip a finger in water to cool his tongue – and he gets turned down on that request, and so begs instead that Lazarus warn his family so _ **they** _ won’t likewise wind up in said fiery place of torment? I know but that seems contrary to what Genesis says the punishment for sin was! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-any-christian-before-condemning-me-to-hell-go-get-waterboarded/582935.md?page=9)