# A Challenge to Apple's Walled Garden, a Battle brought by Fortnite? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 4, 2021, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348 "2021-05-04T02:53:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/1 "2021-05-04T02:53:30Z")
For a quick peek, the article first: > **[Epic Games and Apple spar over consoles and walled gardens on opening day of...](https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/03/tech/apple-vs-epic-trial-sweeney/index.html)** > > Epic Games and Apple kicked off their high-profile trial on Monday, beginning a legal battle that is expected to run for at least two weeks and has the potential to change not only the iPhone maker's app ecosystem, but also the broader app economy... Short version, Apple kicked the Fortnite app off the store because it bypassed ApplePay and Apple wants it’s cut. Fortnite is suing apple for anti-competitive behavior, in that it doesn’t allow other App options. Honestly, I feel a plague upon both their houses, since Fortnite gouges and robs, and Apple gouges and robs. But it’s an interesting argument, and there have been many calls to allow companies to work more freely in the iOS environment. I almost considered this a GD topic: should Apple be forced to allow others into the ‘walled garden’ that is the App store, and if everyone (especially the mods) feel it should be moved, feel free. For what it’s worth, I don’t think it’s fair to put forward the question without giving my opinion, even if I dislike both parties intensely. So I do feel it’s time that iOS be opened up. Much like the Dope, I feel that having a wider array of opinions (apps) would be beneficial, but I would also argue that Apple should be allowed to moderate third parties for safety and access a _reasonable_ (not freakin’ 30%) charge to do so (also like the Dope and our honorable Chartered members). Your opinions are greatly welcomed. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/2 "2021-05-04T03:04:28Z")
Thanks for starting this thread, **ParallelLines** ; I was gonna do it but couldn’t decide which forum it belonged in. 😃 I think Epic Games is gonna have a hard time with their arguments. For instance, they seem to have contradicted themselves several times already. Like by arguing that Apple’s app store is a monopoly of sorts, while also suing Google for running an app store that they claim is _also_ a monopoly of sorts. The notion that the Apple app store is a monopoly because only Apple runs it doesn’t hold a lot of water, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/3 "2021-05-04T03:10:54Z")
I missed the edit window; here’s the AP article that ran today: > **[Apple's 'walled garden' faces Epic attack in app store trial](https://apnews.com/article/apple-inc-lifestyle-trials-technology-business-c8acede2ad74d0b996e1b398351d52a3)** > > SAN RAMON, Calif. (AP) — Apple’s lucrative app store was alternately portrayed as a price-gouging monopoly and a hub of world-changing innovation during the preamble to a trial that may reshape the technological landscape... ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/4 "2021-05-04T04:00:57Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > Honestly, I feel a plague upon both their houses, since Fortnite gouges and robs, and Apple gouges and robs. Like the Sony vs Disney kerfuffle, this feels like Scrooge McDuck & the Monopoly Guy having a slap fight while both trying to convince me that they’re totally on my side and the other guy is the greedy jerkface. Oh, I wonder which multi-billion dollar company is more concerned about me and not returning a profit to their shareholders/investors. I think Epic has the weaker argument (Fortnite is on PC, Android, iOS, Xbox, Nintendo and Playstation – unless I’m forgetting any – so how much of a monopoly is Apple locking them out of?) but I’m not a lawyer and have been “following” this more for the salacious sales reports tidbits than out of legal curiosity. Amusingly, some small time game developer is currently suing Valve over _their_ supposed monopoly, citing as evidence that Epic has been unable to significantly crack into Valve’s market share and Epic Game Store should be considered a failure. Meanwhile, Tim Sweeny is saying that Apple’s attempts to portray EGS as a failure (i.e. Apple: “Don’t tell us how to run a store, Mr. Near Billion Dollar Losses”) are ridiculous and those losses are really investment in the future. So this Epic vs Apple case is handing Valve the defense of “We’re not a monopoly; Epic is actually building investment and going to be super profitable any year now, just ask them!” ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/5 "2021-05-04T11:48:19Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Like the Sony vs Disney kerfuffle, this feels like Scrooge McDuck & the Monopoly Guy having a slap fight while both trying to convince me that they’re totally on my side and the other guy is the greedy jerkface. Yes, except one side taking my money by creating content (even if it’s BS content), and the other is playing the whole “printer ink is more valuable than gold” monopoly gambit. I hate the printer ink sales model, it’s BS and places an unfair load on the consumer to understand the proprietary trade secret underpinnings of the market, when they are barred from having those secrets. I buy an iPhone or an iMac, I can’t see how much the ‘walled garden’ is costing me, it’s deliberately hidden from me. It’s deliberately hidden on other markets as well, once I make my hardware choice, I’m locked into a market that can extract money from me, without providing equal value in return. The fact that I can choose which monopoly is going to screw me over doesn’t make it a competitive market. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/6 "2021-05-04T13:22:56Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Yes, except one side taking my money by creating content (even if it’s BS content), and the other is playing the whole “printer ink is more valuable than gold” monopoly gambit. I don’t really see that. “Printer ink” is HP selling me a printer that’s then inert junk if I don’t exclusively buy HP’s expensive ink. But you can buy an iPhone and run millions of apps ranging from free to paid and get full functionality of the phone. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I buy an iPhone or an iMac, I can’t see how much the ‘walled garden’ is costing me Is it anything? At least in this specific case, from what I could tell, twenty bucks buys you 2,800 “V Bucks” (Fortnite currency) on PC, Xbox, PS, Switch, iOS and Android. If the walled garden was costing you, why aren’t V-Bucks significantly cheaper on PC where Epic has their own store and no middleman between them and your money? This lawsuit isn’t about helping you, the consumer, it’s about Epic wanting a bigger slice of the money pie between them and Apple. By the same token, Epic claimed that their Epic Game Store would lead to lower prices since they took less of a cut. In reality, that applied to a single game, Metro Exodus, where it was almost certainly part of their exclusivity payout arrangement. Everything else, a $60 game is still $60 and maybe some vague handwaving about “Well, if devs have bigger cuts, it’s better for gamers yanno?” I’m not really defending Apple (I’m an Android guy myself) and they have a lot of crap to fix like Right to Repair. But this particular fight isn’t about me at all, it’s about the company with an insanely profitable video game franchise in the world wanting more billions for its investors. The “But it’s for the gamers!” bullshit doesn’t do anything to endear me, but that’s not a legal argument. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/7 "2021-05-04T13:48:41Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > Honestly, I feel a plague upon both their houses, since Fortnite gouges and robs, and Apple gouges and robs. I don’t play Fortnite myself, I simply suck as competitive shooter games, but how does Fortnite gouge and rob people? It’s a free game for all to play. If someone wants the special seasonal loot (or whatever it’s known as) they can pay for the battle pass that season. If not they can still play the game. If they are making skin packs and avatars that people think are way cooler than the free stuff then it must have value and there’s nothing wrong with selling access to it. Apple is more complicated. I think the 30% they take off the top for anything sold on the app store while prohibiting software sold elsewhere from being installed is anti-developer but the trade off is I don’t need to think to hard as a user about whether or not an app will work or if it has a virus etc… because Apple does that. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/8 "2021-05-04T13:55:40Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > It’s a free game for all to play. I thought about that but forgot to mention it in my post. It’s hard to use the printer ink analogy for Apple when you don’t need to pay anything to play Fortnite on your iOS device (aside from the device cost, of course). ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/9 "2021-05-04T14:16:27Z")
In terms of stealing, they’re most famous from taking ‘dances’ from other shows and individuals online > **[Why Fortnite Is Accused of Stealing Dance Moves](https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/fortnite-epic-games-2-milly-stealing-dance-moves-769344/)** > > A lawsuit against the company behind the enormously popular video game raises questions about what, exactly, it takes to own a dance move In terms of gouging, they’re a micro-transaction fueled hell of lootboxes and like, a trait shares a lot of ‘F2P’ games out there, to the point where such things were (still are?) being seriously considered gambling in the EU. > **[Fortnite Makes $1 Billion In Just 2 Years from In-App Transactions](https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2020/05/15/fortnite-makes-over-a-billion/)** > > An app analytics firm reports that the Fortnite mobile version has surpassed over $1 billion in lifetime revenue across iOS and Android devices. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/10 "2021-05-04T14:32:02Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > But you can buy an iPhone and run millions of apps ranging from free to paid and get full functionality of the phone. Millions of apps procured from an Apple-run site. Zero apps from a source other than Apple. This is the crux of the suit, Epic has to wet Apple’s beak in order to have their app available to iPhone users. The issue winds up being that hardware companies are inserting themselves into the usage of the machines they sell, and it isn’t just Apple. They aren’t just selling you hardware and letting you use it, they are demanding a cut of future revenues generated by the hardware. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2021, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/11 "2021-05-04T14:47:19Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Millions of apps procured from an Apple-run site. Zero apps from a source other than Apple. This is the crux of the suit, Epic has to wet Apple’s beak in order to have their app available to iPhone users. Sure, but if my HP printer had millions of cartridge options, including thousands of quality free ones, I wouldn’t be worrying as a consumer about it. I just don’t think the analogy holds. In this specific case, it matters even less: You can get Fortnite for free and buying V-Bucks through iOS costs the same as it does through any other platform (Epic had a ‘sale’ on iOS V-Bucks bought direct but that was just intended to force the lawsuit and make them look like the protagonist; as noted, they have no issue charging $20 on PC with 100% going direct to them). There’s no consumer benefit to what Epic wants in this instance. I’m not a big “walled garden” fan and, again, I handle that by using Android (though I haven’t actually sideloaded anything on my phone in ages). But a lot of people see it as a feature and I’m not sure Apple should be legally prohibited from running their devices/store that way. But, either way the judge decides, this isn’t about me – it’s two billionaires playing tug of war with the next sack of money while they both proclaim to be the common man’s hero. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2021, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/12 "2021-05-05T17:07:11Z")
Is it correct hat 30% is pretty standard in the industry? I thought I read somewhere that Sony also takes 30% but Epic isn’t suing them. And is the problem 30% is too high? Or must the cut be 0%? If 0% then how does Apple pay for the App Store infrastructure? Apple is supplying _something_ of value in running the App Store, do they not have a right to try and profit from their effort… at all? If something between 0% and 30% then why that number and not 30%? I think, if I understand the App Rules correctly, that an app CAN circumvent the App Store Payment. The rule is mainly though, that you can’t advertise the alternate route in the Apple App itself. So I think Epic can sell whatever it is they are selling on their website, they just can’t circumvent the App Store by directing the App itself to the website. I think a case can be made about Apple having too much power, but this Fortnite brouhaha is not it. Better examples are Spotify (a competitor to Apple Music) and the upcoming AirTags (a ripoff of Tile). As far as I can tell Apple is not fucking with Epic to favor Apple in some anti-competitive way, they are holding them to the same standard as everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2021, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/13 "2021-05-05T17:51:36Z")
AFAIK, 30% is standard. Google takes 30%, Valve takes 30%, Apple takes 30%, pretty sure Sony and Microsoft take 30% – though I think MS announced they were lowering the cut for things sold through the MS store? Not sure if that’s PC games or Xbox stuff or everything or what. Epic’s complaint is that 30% is too high. Sony is Fortnite’s largest/most profitable platform and, no, Epic isn’t suing them over their 30%. My guess is that they decided “Apple is a monopoly!” was the easiest target for a lawsuit since no one\* is trying to sideload random 3rd party stuff onto their PS5 and would use their Apple win to force the rest of the platforms into submission. (\*Ok, I’m sure someone is but you know what I mean) Part of Epic’s story is that the Epic Game Store only takes 12%. Apple has pointed out that Epic might be taking a mere 12% but Epic Game Store is also losing tons of money so maybe they shouldn’t be giving business advice (or demands). Epic says they’re only losing tons of money because of all their investment in exclusive game deals (which makes the “Apple is a monopoly!” thing kind of ironic) and give-aways and they’ll be profitable before you know it. As I recall, Epic Game Store’s revenue was flat from 2019 to 2020 though (lots of new “customers” but they just grabbed free stuff and didn’t buy anything) so it remains to be seen if EGS can actually run at a profit without a steady firehose of supplemental Fortnite money from 12 year olds with their mom’s credit card. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2021, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/14 "2021-05-06T03:34:32Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > though I think MS announced they were lowering the cut for things sold through the MS store? Apparently this was just a rumor and [Microsoft has said](https://www.tweaktown.com/news/79154/microsoft-exec-our-30-commission-is-required-to-build-xbox-consoles/index.html) “Nope, we need it at 30% and it’s staying at 30%” at least in part due to lack of profit Microsoft gets from console sales. > “Your justification for the 30% commission is because the hardware doesn’t make money,” Apple counsel asked in the trial. > > “My justification is that the commission is required for us to even build the console,” Wright [Vice President, Gaming, Media & Entertainment at Microsoft] replied. > > Apple’s lawyers also asked whether or not Xbox consoles eventually became profitable over time as manufacturing costs decline, and Wright replied no. > […] > Currently, Microsoft charges developers 30% of any revenues made on the Xbox platform, including game sales, microtransactions, and DLC. Developers keep 70%. This arrangement is essential to keeping the Xbox console business afloat and offsets the high costs of mass-producing, ordering, manufacturing, shipping, and marketing. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2021, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/15 "2021-05-07T00:21:27Z")
Today’s AP article on the trial: > **[Apple's app store chief fends off attacks in antitrust trial](https://apnews.com/article/apple-inc-trials-lifestyle-technology-business-996b93df41ac65a44817bfc436c75e32)** > > Apple’s top app store executive faced a barrage of documents lobbed by an Epic Games lawyer aiming to prove allegations that the iPhone maker has been gouging app makers as part of a scheme hatched by Apple’s late co-founder Steve Jobs. > [@](#): > > Apple’s top app store executive on Thursday faced an avalanche of documents unleashed Thursday by an Epic Games lawyer aiming to prove allegations that the iPhone maker has been gouging app makers as part of a scheme hatched by Apple’s late co-founder Steve Jobs. > > The confrontation in an Oakland, California, courtroom came during the fourth day of an antitrust trial targeting the empire that Apple has built around its iPhone and the digital storefront that serves as the exclusive outlet for people to install apps on the ubiquitous device. That’s a dramatic opening to what ends up being a story of what seems to basically be a nothingburger day in court. I really don’t see a path for Epic to prevail here. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/16 "2021-05-10T00:04:36Z")
This article agrees that Epic’s case thus far has been _weeeeeeeeak_: > **[Is Epic Games' showdown with Apple turning into a mismatch?](https://apnews.com/article/apple-inc-lifestyle-games-technology-business-83e61bd74ee88fa24b994f6295f329f8)** > > If Epic Games hopes to dismantle the fortress surrounding Apple’s iPhone and its app store, the video game maker probably will need to roll out some heavier artillery heading into the second week of a trial threatening Apple’s $2 trillion empire. 😃 Check this out: > [@](#): > > At times, it seemed like Cary, North Carolina-based Epic was helping make Apple’s case as much as its own during the the first week of the trial being held in an Oakland, California, courtroom. > > For instance, at one point during his two days on the witness stand, Epic CEO Tim Sweeney acknowledged he personally used an iPhone instead of smartphones running on Google’s Android software because he thought Apple offered better security and privacy controls. > > Sweeney also acknowledged Apple made changes to iPhone’s software to help make it possible for Fortnite players to compete against each other while one was on a phone and the other was on a video game console. The expansion of so-called “cross-platform” play helped propel Fortnite’s growth to more than 400 million users. > > Other internal documents showed Epic’s executives profusely thanking Apple for the support Fortnite was getting in the app store. The piece concludes with this: > [@](#): > > “If I were a betting man, I would certainly say Apple has the stronger case under existing case law,” said Larry Downes, project director of Georgetown University’s Center for Business and Public Policy. “You have to put yourself in the standpoint of the consumer, and that’s what the judge really has to do. If it’s not harming consumers, then this is just a contract dispute between two companies, with one of them trying to use litigation to renegotiate the terms.” ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2021, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/17 "2021-05-10T00:32:15Z")
Thanks for linking the article Snowboarder\_Bo. Yeah, that has been my take on it for the last few reports. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to see Apple forced to hand more money over to their content creators, but Epic Game’s lawsuit seemed to be a stretch. And it’s not like Apple is charging them _more_ than they charge everyone else, Apple is extremely evenhanded in demanding their cut from everyone! Maybe if/when Apple has it’s own gaming studio and is in direct competition, there would be a better chance if iOS and the AppleStore were seen to be giving their own products a favorable advantage… ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/18 "2021-05-22T20:56:16Z")
Just linking in a quick update/status, as the trial should move to closing arguments after the weekend. > **[Apple puts CEO Tim Cook on the stand to fight the maker of ‘Fortnite’](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/05/21/apple-tim-cook-epic-fortnite-trial/)** > > Tim Cook, one of the most successful corporate leaders in American history, will hammer home a message Apple has repeated throughout the trial: Forcing Apple to open up app distribution to competitors would hurt consumer privacy and security. Apparently, the judge is questioning Cook quite a bit, and there has been quite a bit of focus on numerous side issues, such as how much Google has paid to be the default search engine, and how profitable the App store is - not to mention how the iCloud and App store are managed in China - which is directly contradictory to the security and safety touted in the US. Don’t think much of it applies to the letter of the lawsuit, but would indicate to me the Judge in question is firmly aware of the greater issues. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2021, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/19 "2021-05-22T22:02:12Z")
Aye; I saw that Mr. Cook took the stand. I had not heard, however, how that actually went; interesting that the judge had a lot of questions. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348/20 "2021-05-23T03:56:51Z")
So is there less crap on Apple’s store than Google’s? because wasn’t that was the justification for Apple’s closed-off app store? You know I wish they had called someone from Nintendo on the stand because somehow Nintendo makes money on their consoles a lot of the time …that and I wonder what the Japanese view on this is as someone who played Fortnite until about a month ago when my graphics card took a dive and just got fixed … you can get 80% of everything in Fortnite free these days… in fact since they redid the battle pass and took out all the exp advantages due to the loot box controversy if your good enough at playing all you have to do is buy the battle pass once because if you get to lvl 50 or so you’ll have earned enough to buy the next one The only thing they really make money off is completionist who buy the old stuff they missed and the licensed sets What I wish they’d do is figure out how to kill the rampant cheating that’s popped in in the last year or so [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-apples-walled-garden-a-battle-brought-by-fortnite/941348.md?page=2)