# A Challenge to Modern Liberals Regarding their Fealty to the Principles they Espouse **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693 "2013-06-11T02:57:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/181 "2013-06-14T15:35:11Z")
One more thing: I’m done with the stupid ideological labels. A descriptive label is fine, but the rah-rah cheerleader stuff goes too far, and that’s true even for the terms that originated in the 19th century. People are free to call their own pet ideas whatever they like, but I’m also free to relabel those pet ideas into something more accurate and suitable. So… **Definition: Goatse Money** Goatse Money is any monetary system that is referred to as “sound money”, “honest money”, or any other smug, self-congratulatory label by its proponents. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/182 "2013-06-14T15:45:44Z")
> [@jayarod7](#): > > First of all, all the libertarian is saying is that to achieve desired social ends we should organize peacefully and in a voluntary manner. We did. In 1787 in Philadelphia. A little thing called the Constitutional Convention. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/183 "2013-06-14T15:56:49Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Could you give some examples of this happening? I, for one, haven’t been subjected to coercive violence from the State apparatus so far this year, much less on a day to day basis. Maybe it’s just because I’m a sheep. But what things is it that free-spirited rebels are doing that gets them beat up on a daily basis? [/QUOTE] > [@jayarod7](#): > > I would say you are just so acclimated to the society we currently have, that you don’t recognize the effects of government on your life. > > Have you ever tried to start your own business?.. Well, yes. I sent in a form to the IRS to get a taxpayer ID number for the business, a form and check to the State Corporation Commission to register the business as an S-Corporation, and a form and check to the county for a business license. While skipping the two checks would’ve been nice\*, somehow the process didn’t seem onerous enough for me to start screaming “Smash the state” over it. \*Although at $75 combined, they were hardly make or break for the biz. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/184 "2013-06-14T16:29:47Z")
> [@Hellestal](#): > > One more thing: I’m done with the stupid ideological labels. A descriptive label is fine, but the rah-rah cheerleader stuff goes too far, and that’s true even for the terms that originated in the 19th century. People are free to call their own pet ideas whatever they like, but I’m also free to relabel those pet ideas into something more accurate and suitable. So… > > **Definition: Goatse Money** > > Goatse Money is any monetary system that is referred to as “sound money”, “honest money”, or any other smug, self-congratulatory label by its proponents. Or Itchy and Scratchy Money: it works just like regular money, but it’s… fun. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/185 "2013-06-14T19:27:55Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I suggest starting a thread on the empirical case for sound money or the irrational fear of deflation. Deflation is both a symptom and a cause of economic depression/recession. ---
**Author:** ![jayarod7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dc4da7/32.png) [@jayarod7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayarod7)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/186 "2013-06-17T18:56:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: No, it isn’t. Which is why it doesn’t make one. No, government as a whole doesn’t make a profit, it only makes losses and debts pile up. What I am trying to point out however, is that individual members of the government usually enter the government to personally profit themselves. Congressmen, corporations, bankers, and defense contractors get involved in government to make money for themselves. Actually “make” money isn’t really correct, expropriate money that is violently extracted from the public is more like it. The “government” is really a myth. Individuals can choose to voluntarily produce something, engage in economic transactions peacefully or they can use force, fraud and coercion to achieve their desired ends. We can either have a limited Republic, whereby a government is strictly confined to the enumerated functions of a written Constitution. Such a State is tasked with enforcing the law (laws which would only criminalize behaviors which violate the non aggression principle) and providing a court system for adjudicating disputes and a national defense limited in size to the adequate defense of this nation but NOT to operate a worldwide empire. Or we can have a State less society whereby private law and private defense are substituted for those governmental functions. In such a society, competition in the production of these essential services would lead to improved quality of dispute resolution and defense services. For those that are unfamiliar with the anarchist philosophy you would be forgiven for being a bit confused and skeptical. Yet much work has been done on the subject, much of it extremely persuasive. Here are a few books I recommend: Libertarian Anarchy: Against the State, by Gerald Casey > **[Libertarian Anarchy: Against the State (Think Now): Casey, Gerard, Garvey,...](https://www.amazon.com/Libertarian-Anarchy-Against-State-Think/dp/1441144676)** > > Libertarian Anarchy: Against the State (Think Now) \[Casey, Gerard, Garvey, James, Stangroom, Jeremy\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Libertarian Anarchy: Against the State (Think Now) The Economics and Ethics of Private Property, by Hans Hermann Hoppe > **[The Economics and Ethics of Private Property (Large Print Edition): Hoppe,...](https://www.amazon.com/Economics-Ethics-Private-Property-Large/dp/1479127507)** > > The Economics and Ethics of Private Property (Large Print Edition) \[Hoppe, Hans-Hermann\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. The Economics and Ethics of Private Property (Large Print Edition) The Private Production of Defense, by Hans Hermann Hoppe > **[The Private Production of Defense | Mises Institute](https://mises.org/library/book/private-production-defense?d7_alias_migrate=1)** > > Hans Hoppe takes on the most difficult subject in economic and political theory: the provision of security. He argues that the service is better provided by Even if you reject the entire anarchist argument, you must be in favor of a limited Republic, NOT a democracy. Democracies are the worst form of governments. They perpetuate the mythology of the State with the canard that the government “is the people” and participation in government power somehow makes that exercise of power more just. Rights are meaningless in a democracy. Mob rule is not my idea of a moral and just society. I want a society where minorities are protected from the majority. I want a society where individual liberties are protected regardless of common opinion among the masses. In a democracy the ruling party can always justify its most egregious and grossly immoral acts (launching a war, killing an American with a drone, etc) by claiming a mandate by the public or citing a poll that claims to show a slim majority supporting the action in question. No public opinion polls or democratic elections justify the taking of another man’s justly acquired property. Nor does it justify the initiation of force and violence against either a peaceful citizen of this nation or of another nation that has not used aggression against us. Rights must be absolute, not subject to the whims of public opinion and the ruling class who manipulate public opinion through expert use of propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/187 "2013-06-17T19:21:29Z")
Jayarod, do you have any interest in the topic I mentioned above - ie having a discussion about how your ideal government would work rather than the ideology that forms its basis? If you’d like, we could start a separate thread. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/188 "2013-06-17T19:26:27Z")
> [@jayarod7](#): > > No, government as a whole doesn’t make a profit, it only makes losses and debts pile up. You seem to think that in economic terms, government is some kind of parasitic growth on the private sector. It isn’t, it is an economically productive sector in its own right in its own several ways. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/189 "2013-06-17T19:45:08Z")
> [@jayarod7](#): > > No, government as a whole doesn’t make a profit, it only makes losses and debts pile up. What I am trying to point out however, is that individual members of the government usually enter the government to personally profit themselves. Congressmen, corporations, bankers, and defense contractors get involved in government to make money for themselves. Actually “make” money isn’t really correct, expropriate money that is violently extracted from the public is more like it. Defense contractors have the government as a customer by definition. And they want to make a profit. Duh. That is why there are rules about how they can interact with the government. Ever take a class on how private industry must interact with government people? Thought not. Bankers lobby, and are regulated. I don’t even understand you including them. Lots of rich people (too many) get involved. Perhaps it could be power, not money. You think Bloomberg ran for Mayor of New York to make money? The late Senator Heinz? You should worry more about the cost of elections. > [@](#): > > The “government” is really a myth. Individuals can choose to voluntarily produce something, engage in economic transactions peacefully or they can use force, fraud and coercion to achieve their desired ends. They “can” - but will they? Have they ever? Has there never been the case of a person taking advantage of this voluntary cooperation to get more? You make the most idealistic Communist look harshly realistic. Hobbes covered this hundreds of years ago. You can also read up on game theory. > [@](#): > > We can either have a limited Republic, whereby a government is strictly confined to the enumerated functions of a written Constitution. Such a State is tasked with enforcing the law (laws which would only criminalize behaviors which violate the non aggression principle) and providing a court system for adjudicating disputes and a national defense limited in size to the adequate defense of this nation but NOT to operate a worldwide empire. > > Or we can have a State less society whereby private law and private defense are substituted for those governmental functions. In such a society, competition in the production of these essential services would lead to improved quality of dispute resolution and defense services. Does dealing with our international obligations not make us a Republic? Did Jefferson buying Louisiana finish us off? Why do you think the Constitution can be amended. So, we have private law. You think the thief is going to sign that contract? You think a system with multiple police forces is going to be more efficient than a system with one? Too bad, Mr. Smith, a cop was passing by when the guy entered your house, but he was from a competing company. We can’t be everywhere, you know. > [@](#): > > For those that are unfamiliar with the anarchist philosophy you would be forgiven for being a bit confused and skeptical. Yet much work has been done on the subject, much of it extremely persuasive. Classics of political philosophy I’m sure. Can you put together a logical argument in favor of this stuff that is the slightest bit realistic? Try it, and don’t cite garbage. > [@](#): > > No public opinion polls or democratic elections justify the taking of another man’s justly acquired property. Nor does it justify the initiation of force and violence against either a peaceful citizen of this nation or of another nation that has not used aggression against us. Rights must be absolute, not subject to the whims of public opinion and the ruling class who manipulate public opinion through expert use of propaganda. Sez you. What would justify launching a war - remember, in some cases it might be justified. Most people think Afghanistan was. Does the vote have to be unanimous? Rights are not so obvious. How about the right of a business to run itself as it wishes against the rights of those living downstream not to be poisoned by its output? We manage to avoid total propaganda by having competing voices be heard. That 99% of Americans think your position is a crock of shit does not necessarily mean that they are all deluded, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/190 "2013-06-17T19:46:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You seem to think that in economic terms, government is some kind of parasitic growth on the private sector. It isn’t, it is an economically productive sector in its own right in its own several ways. There have also been plenty of times in history where the debts didn’t pile up. Which was not necessarily good for the economy. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/191 "2013-06-20T11:38:04Z")
There’s not enough gold or any other substance for us to make an economy based on it. In a free market, things have a certain value, based on what people are willing to spend on it. That value is by definition less than the value of everything else in that economy. I just checked Google, and there is only $1.89 trillion worth of gold that has ever been mined. That wouldn’t even begin to cover our national deficit. That’s nowhere near enough dollars to cover our entire economy. Maybe you’re right and fiat money is bad. But gold is worse. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/192 "2013-06-21T14:16:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Deflation is both a symptom and a cause of economic depression/recession. It is also, if a controlled deflation, a source of prosperity for the middle and lower classes as opposed to inflation which benefits the upper classes almost exclusively. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/193 "2013-06-21T14:20:53Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As the proposed way to get there infers revolution, I do not think this will be done shortly, more likely never. > > “But when you want money > For people with minds that hate > All I can tell is brother you have to wait” - The Beatles, Revolution. > > Because yeah, Murray Rothbard was a piece of scientific racism trash. > > [Murray Rothbard - RationalWiki](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Murray_Rothbard) Rothbard wrote on many many topics. His output is incredible. You seek to discredit him by pointing to maybe 1.5% of his output. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/194 "2013-06-21T14:31:23Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Rothbard wrote on many many topics. His output is incredible. You seek to discredit him by pointing to maybe 1.5% of his output. Nah, the issue is with the OP, He claimed that there was no racism among the ones espousing his views. Not being aware of how corrosive things like the Bell Curve book were shows to me a mentality that prejudges many subjects and indeed, regarding the rest of his output, others have already pointed at many of the problems that are always ignored by the followers of that economic folly. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/195 "2013-06-21T14:39:54Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Nah, the issue is with the OP, He claimed that there was no racism among the ones espousing his views. As for the rest of the output others have already pointed at many of the problems that are always ignored by the followers of that folly. Oh. Let us not forget there are racists among the statists as well. The concept of slavery itself was a legal classification upheld by the many states and the US government. OP is correct in pointing out that many of the abolitionists were classical liberals. What is ignored is the responses to these so called “problems” that statists lack the integrity and academic rigor to seek out. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/196 "2013-06-21T15:53:04Z")
> [@jayarod7](#): > > Gold has ALWAYS been seen as a safe investment and a hedge against inflation. This is true of people who are not Austrian economists and not proponents of the Gold Standard. Ah, the true believer. It’s not enough to foolishly toss around absolutes like the word always; it has to be typed in ALL CAPS. You really need to do some reading on the golden age of the Spanish Empire, and the ultimate cause of its fall - rampant inflation caused by all that gold and silver they were bringing back from the New World. So much for gold ALWAYS having been seen as a safe investment and a hedge against inflation, gold does not have a fixed value; it reacts to changes in supply and demand and can be the actual cause of inflation. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/197 "2013-06-21T16:01:39Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Oh. Let us not forget there are racists among the statists as well. The concept of slavery itself was a legal classification upheld by the many states and the US government. OP is correct in pointing out that many of the abolitionists were classical liberals. > > What is ignored is the responses to these so called “problems” that statists lack the integrity and academic rigor to seek out. Of course not, we should not forget that, indeed it is acknowledged, what it is not is that the modern movement did not bother to acknowledge or condemn here what Rothbard was doing. The point for me is that what you are pointing is a red herring, the point I made was indeed to remark on how silly it was to claim that racism was not among the current followers of economical crackpot ideas, and because one constant I see in many past discussions is that followers of one loopy idea usually do follow many other ones. > **[Exposing the Racist History Of Libertarianism And Murray Rothbard](https://www.businessinsider.com/exposing-the-racist-history-of-libertarianism-and-murray-rothbard-2011-10)** > > A deep dive into the racist history of libertarianism, challenging conventional narratives. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/198 "2013-06-21T16:15:39Z")
This multipage discussion about the OP’s dislike of fiat money has grown tiresome. Can we start a multipage discussion on his dislike of fractional-reserve banking? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/199 "2013-06-21T16:18:40Z")
I guess I have to clarify that whoever was a slaver statist was dealt with in the civil war. No such thing is happening for the Libertarians that are loopy now; well OK, no need to send a Sherman to them, but one should not ignore their racist elements specially when related items like a practical lack of interest in helping the less fortunate continue to show in their prepared broth. > **[Exposing the Racist History Of Libertarianism And Murray Rothbard](https://www.businessinsider.com/exposing-the-racist-history-of-libertarianism-and-murray-rothbard-2011-10#ixzz2WrqkKc3H)** > > A deep dive into the racist history of libertarianism, challenging conventional narratives. > [@](#): > > Yet there is a theme historically that comes from Mises. For Mises, as I quoted in Ludwig Von Mises Implies Being a Savage Animal Is Ok!, the newborn child is born a savage. This is why libertarians only accept the legitimacy of voluntary relationships. This plays into the desire to repeal the civil rights act, so that you can kick out ethnic minorities from your restaurant without serving them. > > This plays into the desire of Rothbard to voluntarily separate from blacks in a nation and in public activity. You can see how this insidious morality breaks down society and good will. > > One can deduce that if the foundation of libertarianism is rotten, so is the elitist financial decay that seeks limited government to the extreme. It is a decay because it is based upon the desire to ignore the needs of the greater society. But that society has been stronger because capitalism is tempered with compassion. Where capitalism becomes anarcho-capitalism, a term coined by Rothbard, it becomes a capitalism of unwholesome greed. The capitalist still has to take the subway, or drive his car into the city. If he gets shot at in a destabilized society how does that benefit him? If there is no money to fix the roads, how can he do his job? > > The danger, of course, is that people will become less socialized if there are tech gadgets to allow people to stay at home and work from home. One can hope that these young people who have this wealth and independence will come to see the importance of the common good anyway. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693/200 "2013-06-21T17:00:19Z")
> [@jayarod7](#): > > In fifty years paper dollars issued by the Federal Reserve will be completely worthless . . . Cite? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-challenge-to-modern-liberals-regarding-their-fealty-to-the-principles-they-espouse/660693.md?page=11)