# A chance for change in Iran. The non-shitty version. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967 "2009-06-16T17:53:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/81 "2009-06-18T04:35:00Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Sigh. I don’t want to be in a position of seeming to defend Ahmadinejad, but on this one point, please, for the hundreth time, can you, or anyone, cite that he ever said he wanted to wipe Israel from the map? Not something you were told, or a second- or third-hand account you read, but an actual cite. Sigh. If he hasn’t said it outright he spends a whole lot of time defending statements so easily misinterpreted. > **[Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel)** > > Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was president of Iran from 3 August 2005 to 3 August 2013, and during that time had repeatedly made contentious speeches and statements against Israel. Ahmadinejad refused to call Israel by name, instead calling it the "Zionist regime". He has called for the "elimination of the Zionist regime". Ahmadinejad took part in a protest called "The World Without Zionism" and has derided Israel on numerous occasions. He has urged regional powers to cut diplomatic and econom Ahmadinej... ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/82 "2009-06-18T12:35:22Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Sigh. If he hasn’t said it outright he spends a whole lot of time defending statements so easily misinterpreted. > [Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel) So didn’t say it. Thanks for clearing that up. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/83 "2009-06-18T12:44:14Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > So didn’t say it. Thanks for clearing that up. Or, he did say it, but has been backpedaling since. Much more likely, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/84 "2009-06-18T13:21:59Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Or, he did say it, but has been backpedaling since. Much more likely, in fact. No. Not more likely. He has said repeatedly and in many situations that he means, and this is the explicit analogy he used, like the Soviet Union disappeared as a political entity. [link](http://middleeast.about.com/od/iran/p/ahmadinejad-profile.htm) > [@](#): > > Asked about the remark in a September 2008 Press TV interview, Ahmadinejad said: “Where is the Soviet Union? The Soviet Union has been wiped off the map. […] The decision of the people, the vote of the people. When the people of the Soviet Union, the Russian people, were allowed to decide to take charge of their destiny, the Soviet Union disappeared. The Zionist regime is an artificial regime… a fictitious regime. You brought people from different parts of the world and you have built this state. No, that cannot last, it is not sustainable. If they do not listen to our solution, this will happen one day.” ["] A commentator’s analysis]([URL="[Lost in translation | Jonathan Steele | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/jun/14/post155)) > [@](#): > > The New York Times’s Ethan Bronner and Nazila Fathi, one of the paper’s Tehran staff, make a more serious case. They consulted several sources in Tehran. “Sohrab Mahdavi, one of Iran’s most prominent translators, and Siamak Namazi, managing director of a Tehran consulting firm, who is bilingual, both say ‘wipe off’ or ‘wipe away’ is more accurate than ‘vanish’ because the Persian verb is active and transitive,” Bronner writes. > > The New York Times goes on: “The second translation issue concerns the word ‘map’. Khomeini’s words were abstract: ‘Sahneh roozgar.’ Sahneh means scene or stage, and roozgar means time. The phrase was widely interpreted as ‘map’, and for years, no one objected. In October, when Mr Ahmadinejad quoted Khomeini, he actually misquoted him, saying not ‘Sahneh roozgar’ but ‘Safheh roozgar’, meaning pages of time or history. No one noticed the change, and news agencies used the word ‘map’ again.” > > This, in my view, is the crucial point and I’m glad the NYT accepts that the word “map” was not used by Ahmadinejad. (By the way, the Wikipedia entry on the controversy gets the NYT wrong, claiming falsely that Ethan Bronner “concluded that Ahmadinejad had in fact said that Israel was to be wiped off the map”.) > > If the Iranian president made a mistake and used “safheh” rather than “sahneh”, that is of little moment. A native English speaker could equally confuse “stage of history” with “page of history”. The significant issue is that both phrases refer to time rather than place. As I wrote in my original post, the Iranian president was expressing a vague wish for the future. He was not threatening an Iranian-initiated war to remove Israeli control over Jerusalem. > > Two other well-established translation sources confirm that Ahmadinejad was referring to time, not place. The version of the October 26 2005 speech put out by the Middle East Media Research Institute, based on the Farsi text released by the official Iranian Students News Agency, says: “This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history.” (NB: not “wiped”. I accept that “eliminated” is almost the same, indeed some might argue it is more sinister than “wiped”, though it is a bit more of a mouthful if you are trying to find four catchy and easily memorable words with which to incite anger against Iran.) > > MEMRI (its text of the speech is available here) is headed by a former Isareli military intelligence officer and has sometimes been attacked for alleged distortion of Farsi and Arabic quotations for the benefit of Israeli foreign policy. On this occasion they supported the doveish view of what Ahmadinejad said. > > Finally we come to the BBC monitoring service which every day puts out hundreds of highly respected English translations of broadcasts from all round the globe to their subscribers - mainly governments, intelligence services, thinktanks and other specialists. I approached them this week about the controversy and a spokesperson for the monitoring service’s marketing unit, who did not want his name used, told me their original version of the Ahmadinejad quote was “eliminated from the map of the world”. He’s still an obnoxious little shit though and the sooner him and his ilk adorn a few street lights, the better for all concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/85 "2009-06-18T14:07:25Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > No. Not more likely. He has said repeatedly and in many situations that he means, and this is the explicit analogy he used, like the Soviet Union disappeared as a political entity. > > [link](http://middleeast.about.com/od/iran/p/ahmadinejad-profile.htm) > > A commentator’s analysis > > He’s still an obnoxious little shit though and the sooner him and his ilk adorn a few street lights, the better for all concerned. I’ve come to realize that Ahmadinejad is a net negative on the world stage, and needs to go. However, it always sticks in my craw when misquotes are perpetuated for expediency or political gain. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/86 "2009-06-18T14:16:22Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > I’ve come to realize that Ahmadinejad is a net negative on the world stage, and needs to go. However, it always sticks in my craw when misquotes are perpetuated for expediency or political gain. Quite. It’s The Boy Who Cried Wolf on a giant scale. People like Daniel Pipes, who see it as their job in life to unconditionally support Israel no matter what, by fair means or foul do Israel no service with their cynical lies. One day maybe the world will need to pay attention and we’ll just assume it’s the same old same old. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/87 "2009-06-18T14:18:28Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > No. Not more likely. He has said repeatedly and in many situations that he means, and this is the explicit analogy he used, like the Soviet Union disappeared as a political entity. He is quoting what Ayatollah Khomeini said. > [@](#): > > According to Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, Ahmadinejad’s statement should be translated as: > “The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad)” Whatever Khomeini said is what he meant by his comment because that is who he was trying to quote. Anyone know what that was? Another quote in the article that pretty much says the same thing: Statement on Israel on the Anniversary of Death of Ayatollah Khomeini > [@](#): > > While speaking at a gathering of foreign guests marking the 19th anniversary of the death of Iran’s late revolutionary leader, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the official IRNA news agency quoted Ahmadinejad as stating that > > ``` > "You should know that the criminal and terrorist Zionist regime which has 60 years of plundering, aggression and crimes in its file has reached the end of its work and will soon disappear off the geographical scene." > > ``` Does anyone translate disappear off the geographical scene as anything other than disappear off the map? Now he does say regime, but how does a regime disappear off of a map? It doesn’t, a country can. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/88 "2009-06-18T14:33:45Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Now he does say regime, but how does a regime disappear off of a map? It doesn’t, a country can. The Soviet Union isn’t on any maps is it? Any luck finding Nazi Germany? Kampuchea seems a bit shy. Anyone who maintains he was calling for the physical destruction of Israel is either a cynical ideologue or a fool. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/89 "2009-06-18T14:41:44Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > The Soviet Union isn’t on any maps is it? Any luck finding Nazi Germany? Kampuchea seems a bit shy. Anyone who maintains he was calling for the physical destruction of Israel is either a cynical ideologue or a fool. Yeah, you’re right. How could anyone mistake Ahmadinejad for someone who doesn’t care? Nazi Germany was destroyed, btw. Not a good example. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/90 "2009-06-18T14:46:44Z")
And what, exeactly, does “regime change” constitute as far as Israel is concerned? Changing the government? Changing the political system? Changing the borders? Changing the population? Be specific. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/91 "2009-06-18T14:57:27Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Nazi Germany was destroyed, btw. The point, which as a cynical ideologue you know already, is that a regime vanished from the map. Just like the Soviet Union and the rest of the Communist Bloc. And Pol Pot’s regime. And the Saigon regime. The regime changed and the people and country remained in different political units. Some of them in Poland, some in the GDR some in West Germany. And good riddance to the lot of them. No one, with the slightest coating of brain cells on the inside of their skull, can believe that he was threatening to nuke Israel. It remains a cynical lie perpetrated by people who appear to put loyalty to a foreign power above all else and swallowed whole by unthinking fools. It’s about time the Big Lie approach to politics stopped working. There’s reason enough to fear Islamic fundamentalism without making shit up. Making shit up just hurts that fight. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/92 "2009-06-18T15:01:44Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And what, exeactly, does “regime change” constitute as far as Israel is concerned? > > Changing the government? Changing the political system? Changing the borders? Changing the population? Be specific. Either you are informed enough to take part in a debate or you aren’t. And if you aren’t then let Google Be Your Friend. He favours the ‘tyranny of the majority’ solution of a single state within the borders of Palestine/Greater Israel. He no doubt also believes in flying pigs and the tooth fairy. Being a lunatic. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/93 "2009-06-18T15:08:16Z")
WTF? I don’t remember ever saying he was going to nuke anyone? According to the link I posted he even makes mention that it would be stupid to do so. It doesn’t change the fact that if there wasn’t anyone to stop him and no consequences for doing so, he’d likely do it. And who the hell is making stuff up? You see one translation and others see another. And frankly, I don’t speak farsi to know which one is correct. Based on the character of the individual, it isn’t a stretch to assume which one is correct. Sheesh. And again, most of those countries you quote changed regimes through the death of thousands, if not millions. So, when **Alessan** asks what regime change means, you’ve pretty much said it means lots of people get killed. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/94 "2009-06-18T15:25:16Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Either you are informed enough to take part in a debate or you aren’t. And if you aren’t then let Google Be Your Friend. > . Not familiar with the Socratic Method, are you? Anyway - We agree that Achmedinajad intends grevious and permanant harm to my country and, in all likelihood, to my countrymen. How is this different from what you define as the “incorrect” way of translating his statements? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/95 "2009-06-18T15:25:33Z")
[QUOTE=Uzi] And who the hell is making stuff up? You see one translation and others see another. And frankly, I don’t speak farsi to know which one is correct. Based on the character of the individual, it isn’t a stretch to assume which one is correct. Sheesh. [/QUOTE] I don’t either, but I have friends who do. While the words are ambiguous and don’t translate directly into English well, given the attitude of the speaker they tell me it’s pretty much a no brainer as to what he meant. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/96 "2009-06-18T15:32:36Z")
I’d also like to add that Israel boasts tens of thousands of native Farsi speakers, including the Minister of Defense in office when the statement was made in 2005. We certainly don’t need Juan Cole or the New York Times to translate for us. There is no doubt here as to Achmedinajad’s intentions. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/97 "2009-06-18T15:54:44Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Sigh. If he hasn’t said it outright he spends a whole lot of time defending statements so easily misinterpreted. > [Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel) Interesting. It’s like when Khrushchev said the USSR would “bury” the West. In English that sounds like a threat, but in Russian it’s an idiom meaning “to attend someone’s funeral.” IOW, he was only predicting, “We will outlast you,” i.e., capitalism would eventually collapse or self-destruct as Marx predicted. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/98 "2009-06-18T15:56:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > There is no doubt here as to Achmedinajad’s intentions. He’s a politician. Don’t confuse his **statements** with his **intentions.** ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/99 "2009-06-18T16:18:52Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] He’s a politician. Don’t confuse his statements with his intentions. [/QUOTE] I hate to Godwinize the thread, but Hitler was a politician too…so was Stalin. Don’t confuse what you want to hear with what he’s actually saying, and don’t forget that YOU (and me, and everyone in this thread) aren’t his target audience. To the people who ARE his target audience his statements are pretty much crystal clear, seemingly. Also, don’t forget for a moment that this guy represents the REAL far right…ultra conservative, fundamentally religious. -XT ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/100 "2009-06-18T23:13:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Perhaps not, but no one in this thread has expressed disagreement yet (except WRT the relative popular support of seculars vs. religionists). Anyway, referring to one’s earlier post is merely a way to avoid repeating oneself. Yes, actually I need to start following your lead on this. I am asked to repeat myself quite a bit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967.md?page=6)