# A chance for change in Iran. The non-shitty version. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967 "2009-06-16T17:53:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/141 "2009-06-20T21:05:53Z")
I was watching CNN at a bar last night and spit beer on my friend from laughing when I read: Ayatollah Khamenei blames Hillary Clinton for Waco disaster Which may very well be the best example of a non sequitur I have ever heard. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/142 "2009-06-20T21:16:00Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I was watching CNN at a bar last night and spit beer on my friend from laughing when I read: > > Ayatollah Khamenei blames Hillary Clinton for Waco disaster > Which may very well be the best example of a non sequitur I have ever heard. That is pretty funny. And here I always thought Ayatollah Khamenei was supposed to be smart. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/143 "2009-06-20T21:27:10Z")
Right. Cause the guy who is calling on the world to respond by ceasing to recognize the Ahmadinejad government, and says it’s an international problem … he totally wants the world to butt out and say absolutely nothing. Or he wants “the world” to speak up, but emphatically _not_ the world’s sole superpower. It’s completely plausible that he meant “everyone except the US.” Had China and Russia in mind, he did. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/144 "2009-06-20T21:30:51Z")
Not recognizing Ahamdinejad is doing nothing. The last thing the protesters need or want is official approval by the United States. Unofficial support by people in the US and elsewhere is another thing entirely. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/145 "2009-06-20T21:35:32Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Right. Cause the guy who is calling on the world to respond by ceasing to recognize the Ahmadinejad government, and says it’s an international problem … he totally wants the world to butt out and say absolutely nothing. > > Or he wants “the world” to speak up, but emphatically _not_ the world’s sole superpower. It’s completely plausible that he meant “everyone except the US.” Had China and Russia in mind, he did. And if it turns out that Ahmedinejad retains power, and Moussavi is pigeon-holed, how does it benefit us to not recognize the ruling government of Iran again? I’m sorry, but I’m not getting it. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/146 "2009-06-20T21:52:50Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Except that isn’t what he did. He didn’t condemn the Iranian government. He condemned certain responses. Exactly correct. This is not getting involved with who won the election or whether or not the election was rigged. This is not about making accusations that we cannot prove. This is not advocating for a regeime changing result that just happens to at least superficially seem to be in US best interests. This not allowing events in Iran to be made into being about America or even the West. This is standing against particular actions being taken by the current power structures that are out in the open and speaking up for the freedom to protest without threat of violence. This careful positioning, condemning not a result that we do not like, but indisputable actions of oppression, is forcing other regional actors to declare whether they are for an Islamic government that shuts their people up with force or for the people being able to protest and puts much of the Arab world in a position in which they will find themselves agreeing with Obama and against the actions of an Islamic theocracy which had been positioning itself as the regional power broker. Because this as _not_ about what America wants, the Iranian theocracy’s crackdown has put itself in a no win position: even if they succeed in squashing the protest movement it will open up populist anger against them across Islamic world; any support that other organizations get from them become a bit tarnished; other actors are a bit more free to act against them without fear of angering their populations; and Obama earns cred as a potentially “honest broker”. Maybe Obama is, relative to the impotent bluster of others and the knee-jerk fist-clenching of others, just doing nearly nothing but sometimes doing nearly nothing is the exact right thing to do so long as you do it well. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/147 "2009-06-20T22:09:25Z")
[Here’s](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/06/2009620184151643728.html) how Arab media (Al Jazeera) reports it now. > [@](#): > > Riot police in Iran have used tear gas, water cannon and batons to disperse about 3,000 people attempting to protest over the disputed presidential election of Mahmoud Ahmdinejad, the president. > > Witnesses said that dozens of people were hospitalised after being beaten by police and pro-government militia in the capital, Tehran, on Saturday. … > > … Barack Obama, the US president, condemned the violence and urged Tehran to allow Mousavi’s supporters to stage peaceful protests. > > “The Iranian government must understand that the world is watching,” he said. > > “We mourn each and every innocent life that is lost. We call on the Iranian government to stop all violent and unjust actions against its own people.” > > Nick Spicer, Al Jazeera’s correspondent in Washington DC, said: "It’s his [Obama] strongest language to date and he’s putting the blame for the violence squarely on the soldiers of the Iranian government saying that the world is watching what is going on in Iran, not just that the united states is watching, and what he’s doing is he’s basically calling the whole world as a witness to what’s going on in Iran and avoiding what has become after thirty years of distrust. > > “He’s trying to make this not an Iran-America thing but a global human rights argument that he’s putting to the leaders of Iran,” he said. You can imagine for yourself how it would be reported differently if Obama was suckered into playing as the blusterers would. The crisis in Iran will play out and success for the protesters would not be helped by silly posturing. But never let a crisis go to waste. The effect that Obama’s calibrated response is having on how America is perceived in the Islamic world and consequently on his future effectiveness in being to negotiate with even a hostile Iran and to gain cooperation against terror groups is going to bear much fruit over the next year or so I think. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/148 "2009-06-20T22:18:38Z")
To be honest what is described above doesn’t sound really any worse than America. I have a friend who got thrown through a plate glass window by the NYPD at a protest during the Bush administration. He won a settlement of about $ 40k because it was caught on camera. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/149 "2009-06-20T22:24:09Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] To be honest what is described above doesn’t sound really any worse than America. I have a friend who got thrown through a plate glass window by the NYPD at a protest during the Bush administration. [/QUOTE] Are you saying that the Al Jazeera report doesn’t sound as bad, or the situation in Iran doesn’t sound as bad? If the former…well, yeah, probably not, though I don’t recall dozens hospitalized during protests against Bush. If the former…huh? From what I’ve been reading a LOT of people have been hospitalized and killed, which I don’t recall there being parallels to during Bush’s presidency. -XT ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/150 "2009-06-20T22:29:09Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > And if it turns out that Ahmedinejad retains power, and Moussavi is pigeon-holed, how does it benefit us to not recognize the ruling government of Iran again? If Ahmedinejad retains power, Moussavi will be a lot more than pigeon-holed. To the point: I was responding to DSeid’s claim that Moussavi did not want outside support. In fact, Moussavi is _not_ sending a “foreigners keep out” message. To repeat what I already said: “whether or not we should listen is another question entirely.” You seem to be making assumptions. FWIW, I think Obama’s new statement is much better, though about five days late IMO. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/151 "2009-06-20T22:56:23Z")
And again **furt** I would appreciate if you do not claim that I have said something that I did not say. Again, "outside support"≠ “explicit support of American politicians.” Perhaps you’d have preferred that he had said something as much better like [this](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/06/obama-iran-elections.html) five days ago? > [@](#): > > I think that the democratic process – free speech, the ability of people to peacefully dissent – all those are universal values and need to be respected. … there appears to be a sense on the part of people who were so hopeful and so engaged and so committed to democracy who now feel betrayed. And I think it’s important that, moving forward, whatever investigations take place are done in a way that is not resulting in bloodshed and is not resulting in people being stifled in expressing their views. … they should know that the world is watching. … the Iranian people and their voices should be heard and respected. Oh wait. That’s what he did say. D’oh. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/152 "2009-06-20T23:46:10Z")
[![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bbdEf0QRsLM/hqdefault.jpg "Iran, Tehran: wounded girl dying in front of camera, Her name was Neda") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbdEf0QRsLM) \*Not \*_at all \*\* safe for work_. This is film of a young woman dying after having being shot. I think she has been shot in the leg and it has gone deflected right up inside her body. In any case she doesn’t live long and she drowns in her own blood. There’s another video of that poor lassies death from the front but I won’t link to it. I’ve been trying to help out by running proxies for some kids in Iran, but it’s been a bit rubbish. Terrible rubbish and no help. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/153 "2009-06-21T19:32:47Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Are you saying that the Al Jazeera report doesn’t sound as bad, or the situation in Iran doesn’t sound as bad? If the former…well, yeah, probably not, though I don’t recall dozens hospitalized during protests against Bush. If the former…huh? From what I’ve been reading a LOT of people have been hospitalized and killed, which I don’t recall there being parallels to during Bush’s presidency. > > -XT I’m saying the Al Jazeera report doesn’t sound as bad. Definitely a lot of people weren’t killed, but a lot of people were injured and hospitalized during protests against Bush. You just don’t remember them because they didn’t make news, but I’ve seen the video of my friend being thrown through a window. I was at a protest and saw stupid police decisions making the situation worse on a couple of occasions. I saw with my own eyes people being beaten by police officers. I know people who have been teargassed in protests. No, not killed certainly, that’s a level they didn’t get to. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/154 "2009-06-21T19:44:35Z")
Well, if you say you saw it, then that’s fine…I’ve heard nothing that even comes remotely close to the level of violence during the protests in Iran. Hell, even Vietnam era protests didn’t come close to what I’ve been reading about the situation in Tarahan alone. I’d need a bit more than your word for how bad the protests and riots were during the Bush administration to be convinced that it is even in the same universe…even leaving aside all the deaths and shootings I’m reading about in Iran. -XT ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/155 "2009-06-21T20:00:30Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well, if you say you saw it, then that’s fine…I’ve heard nothing that even comes remotely close to the level of violence during the protests in Iran. Hell, even Vietnam era protests didn’t come close to what I’ve been reading about the situation in Tarahan alone. I’d need a bit more than your word for how bad the protests and riots were during the Bush administration to be convinced that it is even in the same universe…even leaving aside all the deaths and shootings I’m reading about in Iran. No, I don’t think it’s anywhere near the level of Iran, but I did see excessive force being used at protests here in New York. I’m just saying that Al Jazeera article made it sound a lot less bad than it is. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/156 "2009-06-21T20:30:55Z")
Sure, and I’d say that small instances of excessive force are going to happen periodically even in countries like the US or the various European nations (like the riots in France a few years ago). It’s the scale and levels of violence that are different. -XT ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/157 "2009-06-21T20:56:22Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Sure, and I’d say that small instances of excessive force are going to happen periodically even in countries like the US or the various European nations (like the riots in France a few years ago). It’s the scale and levels of violence that are different. > > -XT We’re not even in disagreement. I just made an aside regarding that particular article and the way it made things sound. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/158 "2009-06-21T21:02:02Z")
Nope, not in disagreement. My apologies if I hijacked things. -XT ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/159 "2009-06-21T21:02:44Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Nope, not in disagreement. My apologies if I hijacked things. > > -XT Hehe, no, no big deal. What’s happening in Iran is a mess. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967/160 "2009-06-21T22:01:50Z")
Do they have a wall or something that Obama can tell them to tear down? That might help. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-change-in-iran-the-non-shitty-version/499967.md?page=9)