# A Chance for Progress in the God Debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2007, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109 "2007-12-24T07:05:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrFantsyPants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MrFantsyPants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFantsyPants)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/21 "2007-12-25T23:09:14Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Love] I would offer for discussion one of two books by Daniel Dennett: _Darwin’s Dangerous Idea_ or _Freedom Evolves_. Neither of these books is nearly as short as _The Abolition of Man_, the former weighs in at 521 pages while the latter is a slimmer 309, and both have long discussions that are at best tangential to the topic at hand. Like _The Abolition of Man_, neither book is really aimed toward converting people to atheism. But both books cover the same (or very similar) points that _The Abolition of Man_ covers, but over an explicitly atheist backdrop. I would suspect that _Freedom Evolves_ might be a better book for this discussion. [/QUOTE] I would argue against Dennett, although I have only read **Darwin’s Dangerous Idea** , not **Freedom Evolves** , but I found it to be fairly inaccessible, in terms of the language and chapter structure. The term _intellectually masturbatory_ comes to mind. Even though I have a great respect for him, and agree with his ideas, I found myself thinking ‘Enough already. Shut up now’. BTW, I’m in. I’ll do my best to read whatever the theists settle on. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/22 "2007-12-25T23:18:30Z")
[QUOTE=MrFantsyPants] BTW, I’m in. I’ll do my best to read whatever the theists settle on. [/QUOTE] I think \*\*ITR champion \*\* already settled on CS Lewis and Richard Dawkins. Now, I think, we’re just waiting to know when the two threads will be opened (i.e., how long we have to read the two books). ---
**Author:** ![nd\_n8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@nd\_n8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nd_n8)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2007, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/23 "2007-12-26T13:10:00Z")
Count me in. I’m willing to read both the Lewis and the Dawkins books. I’ve never been in it to convert anyone, just to freshen up some of my tired old arguements. Looking forward to it, anxiously awaiting the time frame. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2007, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/24 "2007-12-26T14:32:35Z")
I’m in. The God delusion has been recommended several times. I’m up for reading it. I might suggest [The Divine Matrix](http://www.amazon.com/Divine-Matrix-Bridging-Miracles-Belief/dp/1401905706) although it’s a bit New Age. It’s interesting to me because it blends physics theories with spiritual teachings. At some point I’d like to discuss the physics mentioned in it with the board. ---
**Author:** ![nd\_n8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@nd\_n8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nd_n8)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2007, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/25 "2007-12-26T17:05:09Z")
I would propose that, given all of the excellent books suggested, we stick to the two submitted and, after viewing the relative success or failure of the debate, move on to two more, or not as the case may be (or build upon the debate with future suggestions as issues not covered in the original two pop up). My questions are: - I am a little unclear as to the two threads idea. Is this to be one pro and one con thread where both books are discussed in each or one thread per book? - Would the subject matter alone keep this in **GD** as opposed to **CS** or would it be presumed that debate will ensue? Just wondering is all. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2007, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/26 "2007-12-26T18:34:07Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] This was all your idea, so it’s up to you, but if it were up to me, I’d set a “Do not start discussing before…” date for at least a week or two from now. Otherwise, some people may have a huge head start on the discussion over others. [/QUOTE] I recognize your point here. On the other hand, some of us will have more time to read and post during the next few days because we’re on vacation. So I’d still say that we should start the debate threads as soon as possible. Of course it would be fine to join the threads before you’ve finished the entire books, if you’re afraid of falling behind. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2007, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/27 "2007-12-27T19:22:38Z")
With my username, one might think I would be more involved with the religious debates, but I have avoided them for different reasons, but I definitely like this idea. I have not read either book and I look forward to the discussions. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2007, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/28 "2007-12-27T19:44:59Z")
I dig this. I’m an atheist, so after I finish my copy of God is Not Great, I’ll be back in to read some of the theists’ recommendations. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2007, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/29 "2007-12-27T20:03:03Z")
Have the two books been decided upon? What are they? ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/30 "2007-12-27T20:24:41Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Have the two books been decided upon? What are they? [/QUOTE] See post 13. - _The God Delusion_ and _The Abolition of Man_. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2007, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/31 "2007-12-27T22:33:53Z")
[QUOTE=nd\_n8] - I am a little unclear as to the two threads idea. Is this to be one pro and one con thread where both books are discussed in each or one thread per book? [/quote] One thread per book, though it’s possible that one or both book discussions will spin off other threads. > [@](#): > > Would the subject matter alone keep this in **GD** as opposed to **CS** or would it be presumed that debate will ensue? I plan to post in **Great Debates** , under the assumption that the discussion will be deep enough to justify it. I plan to start the thread on _The Abolition of Man_ either tonight or tomorrow. For those who haven’t started reading, you could probably finish it in an hour or so. ---
**Author:** ![9thFloor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/b487fb/32.png) [@9thFloor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/9thFloor)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2007, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/32 "2007-12-27T23:37:30Z")
I’m in, I’ve read _The Abolition of Man_, and ready to go! 🙂 (Great OP) ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/33 "2007-12-28T00:14:57Z")
[QUOTE=9thFloor] I’m in, I’ve read _The Abolition of Man_, and ready to go! 🙂 (Great OP) [/QUOTE] Harumph. I’m at a conference until the 31st. But I’ve ordered _The Abolition of Man_, and it has shipped, so I’ll read it on the 31st or the 1st, probably. And being the good little atheist that I am, I read _The God Delusion_ this summer. I’ll be ready to go within a week. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/34 "2007-12-28T00:52:42Z")
I put _The God Delusion_ on hold, it wasn’t there when I went to work yesterday. I own _The Abolition of Man_, so I guess I’ll read that first. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/35 "2007-12-28T03:38:39Z")
I ordered my copy of The God Delusion from Amazon. No changing books now. ---
**Author:** ![nd\_n8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@nd\_n8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nd_n8)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2007, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/36 "2007-12-28T12:49:24Z")
Thank you **ITR Champion**. I have read most of \*The Abolition of Man \* online (linked above) but will look for a copy of that and \*The God Delusion \* this weekend and pour through them over the holiday. Should be ready within a week, if not I ain’t a’ scairt to start anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2008, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/37 "2008-01-08T19:24:01Z")
LINKS: [“The Abolition of Man” discussion thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=449407) [“The God Delusion” discussion thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=450658) ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/38 "2008-02-06T21:51:02Z")
At the end of the thread on _The God Delusion_, we agreed to repeat the process with a different pair of books. My proposal for the next book from a Christian perspective is [A Guide for the Perplexed](http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Perplexed-E-F-Schumacher/dp/0060906111/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195076071&sr=1-1) by E. F. Schumacher. This is another short book, but more explicitly about spiritualism than _The Abolition of Man_. It’s only more recent, being written in 1977, and thus addresses more modern sensibilities. I know that others have suggested several books from the Christian side, and some of them look quite fascinating. I’d be happy to try one of those for the third round. For now I’m proposing Schumacher’s book because it covers so much ground and is highly relevant to a lot of the topics that popped up in the first two threads. (Also, I should note that my book is different from _A Guide for the Perplexed_ by the ancient Jewish scholar Maimonides. Schumacher borrowed the title from Maimonides’ book.) Nominations for the atheists’ book are now open. ---
**Author:** ![MrFantsyPants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MrFantsyPants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFantsyPants)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2008, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/39 "2008-02-06T23:56:45Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] Nominations for the atheists’ book are now open. [/QUOTE] Well, as for arguing against the likelihood of God, nothing really comes close to **The God Delusion** in terms of its attention to detail, or its scope. I suppose we could talk about [The Astonishing Hypothesis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Astonishing_Hypothesis) by Francis Crick, or Daniel Dennett’s [Darwin’s Dangerous Idea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin%27s_Dangerous_Idea) but I’d be tempted to go for something a little more offbeat. Rather than arguing against God, books like [Song of the Dodo](http://www.simonsays.com/content/book.cfm?tab=7&pid=407232) do a great job of showing the natural world as a result of natural processes. It’s a great read, and has some pretty solid science in there. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/40 "2008-02-08T19:55:58Z")
If nobody else has a suggestion to offer, I guess it’s up to **MrFantsyPants** to make a final choice. Personally it will probably be a couple weeks before I have time to read an entire book. But if someone else wants to start the discussion threads sooner than that, it’ll be fine with me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109.md?page=3)