# A Chance for Progress in the God Debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2007, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109 "2007-12-24T07:05:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2008, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/41 "2008-02-08T22:14:57Z")
Why must the issue always be framed as evolution versus God? If I am willing to concede the factual nature of evolution but still believe in God as a metaphysical entity concerned with morality, where do I fit in? Maybe I don’t. I’m just asking. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Love](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Dr.Love](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Love)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/42 "2008-02-08T22:51:16Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Why must the issue always be framed as evolution versus God? If I am willing to concede the factual nature of evolution but still believe in God as a metaphysical entity concerned with morality, where do I fit in? Maybe I don’t. I’m just asking. [/QUOTE] I suspect that puts you right alongside **ITR champion** as well as C. S. Lewis and E. F. Schumacher. **ITR champion** , I gave my nominations last time, but I think **MrFantsyPants** ’ criticism still stands. I can provide a comment about Darwin’s Dangerous Idea: Dennett’s philosophical goal is to show a godless universe provides everything that we have been accustomed to believing in a universe with a god, with the exception of an immortal soul. I’ve looked over some sites discussing Schumacher’s book and Dennett will make some of the same points that Schumacher makes in a different way. For example, Schumacher introduces the levels of existence, while Dennett discusses what he calls the physical stance, the design stance and the intentional stance. (I can’t recall how much time he gives to this in DDI, but I know it’s in his other works.) I haven’t read either The Astonishing Hypothesis or Song of the Dodo, so I can’t comment on those. Perhaps this will help to give you some idea of what you might find most interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Love](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Dr.Love](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Love)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/43 "2008-02-09T07:40:22Z")
I think I’ll add a rather late comment that I think Song of the Dodo looks interesting and I wouldn’t mind reading that, if I can find the time. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/44 "2008-02-09T08:00:37Z")
To suggest a lighter hearted book that still argues against theism I throw in The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It may seem like I’m not taking it seriously, but I feel it touches on good points while staying very friendly to the audience. (It has both essays and satire so there) I can’t promise to debate but I promise to at least read whatever I’m given. Oh and heres a neutralish article (not a book) for both sides: > **[10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On](https://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html)** > > The war that's coming between the fundamentalist Christians and the hard-core Atheists probably won't be the most violent of the holy wars. But it has the potential to be the most annoying. Well, I'm going to try to stop it. > So I'm running into this... The only point i really disagree with is the fact that horrid things have been done int eh name of both. it’s mainly the wording though, simply because things aren’t really done int eh name of Atheism but rather “the state” or something similar. And I really am sorry if I seem like I’m not taking it seriously I really am and really think the book and article bring up good points while still being nice and easy reading. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/45 "2008-02-09T16:08:05Z")
I’m going out to get _A Guide for the Perplexed_, how much time do I have before we start the discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Poor\_College\_Student](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Poor\_College\_Student](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poor_College_Student)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/46 "2008-02-09T19:59:34Z")
I just want to clarify, this is a debate strictly for/against the existence of God (or a god), right? If it’s not too strict, the first thing that came to mind for me was Misquoting Jesus. But that’s more about the Bible and the institution of Christianity, rather than the more philosophical debate of the existence of God. If anyone is up for some extra reading, I highly recommend it. On the other side (since I’m trying to remain a neutral agnostic), I really liked C. S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity. He makes some good points, and is just an excellent writer. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/47 "2008-02-09T21:22:56Z")
I’m a theist and I’ll join in as well. I’ve got _The God Delusion_ on reserve at the library. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/48 "2008-02-09T23:30:25Z")
Sorry, **Dale** , we’ve already done _The God Delusion_. You can still post to the thread [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=450658). Maybe **ITR Champion** should announce Part 2 in a new thread to avoid confusion by people who get excited before they get through the whole thread. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/49 "2008-02-09T23:44:33Z")
[QUOTE=Alan Smithee] Sorry, **Dale** , we’ve already done _The God Delusion_. You can still post to the thread [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=450658). Maybe **ITR Champion** should announce Part 2 in a new thread to avoid confusion by people who get excited before they get through the whole thread. [/QUOTE] I didn’t even notice the date on the thread. Well, I’ll read it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/50 "2008-02-10T18:42:41Z")
[QUOTE=Poor College Student] I just want to clarify, this is a debate strictly for/against the existence of God (or a god), right? [/QUOTE] Despite the thread title, what I originally imagined was more freewheeling debate about any topics related to Christianity and atheism. I certainly don’t want to cut out any good, thought-provoking books by defining the field too narrowly. For now it looks like _Song of the Dodo_ is getting the most support from the atheist side, so let’s make that the other book for round two. Also, of course, there’s no reason why debate can’t continue in the threads for _The Abolition of Man_ and _The God Delusion_, for those who got here late. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Love](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Dr.Love](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Love)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/51 "2008-02-11T08:04:02Z")
I’m curious **ITR champion** , is there any topic you would like to see explained more? The book selection process seems to be a bit murky unless we have some goal to aim towards. If we’re going with Song of the Dodo, will we be preceeding on more of a chapter-by-chapter basis, since the book is rather large (a fact I didn’t think to check until tonight)? ---
**Author:** ![MrFantsyPants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MrFantsyPants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFantsyPants)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/52 "2008-02-11T14:43:10Z")
[QUOTE=Dr. Love] I’m curious **ITR champion** , is there any topic you would like to see explained more? The book selection process seems to be a bit murky unless we have some goal to aim towards. If we’re going with Song of the Dodo, will we be preceeding on more of a chapter-by-chapter basis, since the book is rather large (a fact I didn’t think to check until tonight)? [/QUOTE] Let’s be clear about the Song of The Dodo. It does not touch on theological matters at all. I suggested it because I read it it a time when I was struggling with matters theological myself, and it made clear to me how thoroughly unnecessary God was in the natural world. It also got me thinking along the lines of looking at religions as evolving and competing organisms, and as a result, was quite influential in my own views of the world. But at it’s core, it is really just a book about island bio-geography, and as an extension of that, speciation. It’s a lovely book though, and it makes its points very well. Perhaps it will bring up that same thought processes in other’s minds, perhaps not. I would guess though, that no-one is likely to regret reading it. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/53 "2008-02-11T15:47:32Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Why must the issue always be framed as evolution versus God? If I am willing to concede the factual nature of evolution but still believe in God as a metaphysical entity concerned with morality, where do I fit in? Maybe I don’t. I’m just asking. [/QUOTE] Well, I think a lot of thinkers like Dawkins start out with the premise that theistic evolution would be guided evolution, and hence would be more or less free of the “jury-rigged” solutions found in nature (like the so-called ‘Panda’s thumb’), and also free of examples of poor design, which are more easily reconciled with naturalistic evolution than with theistically-guided evolution. My $.02, FWIW. BTW, someone let us know when the two books are definitively settled. (\<–not a snarky comment; I just want to order them as soon as I can, since my opportunities for leisure reading are limited and it will take me a while to read the books–part of why I didn’t get to participate in the first two threads. ☹ ) ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/54 "2008-02-11T15:49:53Z")
[QUOTE=MrFantsyPants] Let’s be clear about the Song of The Dodo. It does not touch on theological matters at all. I suggested it because I read it it a time when I was struggling with matters theological myself, and it made clear to me how thoroughly unnecessary God was in the natural world. It also got me thinking along the lines of looking at religions as evolving and competing organisms, and as a result, was quite influential in my own views of the world. But at it’s core, it is really just a book about island bio-geography, and as an extension of that, speciation. It’s a lovely book though, and it makes its points very well. Perhaps it will bring up that same thought processes in other’s minds, perhaps not. I would guess though, that no-one is likely to regret reading it. [/QUOTE] One thing to keep in mind is that we can keep doing these threads for as long as we want, so if someone is really keen to read, say, \*The Blind Watchmaker \* (which explicitly argues that evolution is incompatible with theism), then we can do so in a future thread. So we don’t have to uber-carefully select each book to make sure it is a masterpiece of apologetics. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2008, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/55 "2008-02-12T04:28:03Z")
[http://www.thejesusmyth.com/the-truth-about-religion.htm](http://www.thejesusmyth.com/the-truth-about-religion.htm) \ These arguments are always devoid of humor. here again ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/56 "2008-02-12T17:07:21Z")
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion] One thing to keep in mind is that we can keep doing these threads for as long as we want, so if someone is really keen to read, say, \*The Blind Watchmaker \* (which explicitly argues that evolution is incompatible with theism), then we can do so in a future thread. So we don’t have to uber-carefully select each book to make sure it is a masterpiece of apologetics. [/QUOTE] There is a danger that participation may drop off after a certain point. Most of us can only take so much of this debate and new folks may feel intimidated about joining a long ongoing discussion. I actually thought about suggesting _The Blind Watchmaker_ for just the reason you mentioned, but I though two books in a row by Dawkins might be too much. Is there a similar book that not only explains evolution, but explores the philosophical and theological implications of it? Maybe something by Dennet? Or we could go with something like _The Demon-Haunted World_. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/57 "2008-02-13T17:13:06Z")
I really hope the two books that are settled on are _The Song of the Dodo_ and _A Guide for the Perplexed_ 'cause I bought both and am almost finished reading the later. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/58 "2008-02-13T18:51:40Z")
[QUOTE=Alan Smithee] There is a danger that participation may drop off after a certain point. Most of us can only take so much of this debate and new folks may feel intimidated about joining a long ongoing discussion. I actually thought about suggesting _The Blind Watchmaker_ for just the reason you mentioned, but I though two books in a row by Dawkins might be too much. Is there a similar book that not only explains evolution, but explores the philosophical and theological implications of it? Maybe something by Dennet? Or we could go with something like _The Demon-Haunted World_. [/QUOTE] Makes sense, about Dawkins. I just read _The Demon-Haunted World_, and I don’t think it would serve very well as a counterpoint to a religious book. It didn’t really strike me as anti-religious; just anti-ignorance of science. A lot of the discussion in the book was about things like UFOs and other things not really related to theism. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2008, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/59 "2008-02-13T21:02:30Z")
[QUOTE=Sitnam] I really hope the two books that are settled on are _The Song of the Dodo_ and _A Guide for the Perplexed_ 'cause I bought both and am almost finished reading the later. [/QUOTE] Yes, those are the choices for the second pair of discussion threads. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Love](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Dr.Love](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Love)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2008, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109/60 "2008-02-21T23:05:36Z")
It’s been a while since anyone posted in this thread. My copy of Schumacher _finally_ came in today, and it’s even smaller than I thought. So if anyone is done (and I suspect a few people are), I wouldn’t mind if they started a thread and I can comment on chapters as I read them. Or I can start a new thread and we can post our comments chapter-by-chapter (more or less like the Dawkin’s thread last time), or I can refrain from posting until I’ve finished the book. Personally, I’d rather make posts as I read the book due to time constraints, but the format is up to **ITR champion**. Also, my copy of Quammen came in yesterday, but I doubt that I will start it until I’m done with Schumacher. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chance-for-progress-in-the-god-debate/431109.md?page=2)