# A chess question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 7, 2003, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209 "2003-01-07T23:42:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/1 "2003-01-07T23:42:12Z")
I’ve never (not that I play a lot) run into this situation before: H8 White King F8 Black King E6 Black Rook G6 Black Queen Now, this would be just fine were it black’s move. But it’s whites. White cannot move, as white will get killed by either the black queen or king depending on where white moves. But at the same time, no single move of black’s will kill the king (kill, as opposed to mate. By kill I mean replace on the board). So … 😕 What the heck happens now? ---
**Author:** ![Wulfgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Wulfgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wulfgar)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/2 "2003-01-07T23:53:42Z")
If white cannot move anywhere without being killed its a stalemate (draw.) This assumes that white has no other pieces that can move either. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/3 "2003-01-07T23:56:45Z")
If white cannot legally move without exposing its king to the enemy, it’s checkmate. ---
**Author:** ![Tarokun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tarokun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarokun)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2003, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/4 "2003-01-07T23:58:47Z")
I do believe it’s a stalemate; the game’s over and neither side wins. Kind of sucks for black, being that close to actually winning the game. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/5 "2003-01-08T00:02:05Z")
I could be wrong, though. I’ll check with a friend of mine who would know. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/6 "2003-01-08T00:11:26Z")
Stalemate it is. I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/7 "2003-01-08T00:12:05Z")
I’m 99.975% sure it’s stalemate, and therefore a draw. If it’s your turn, and you’re not in check, and you have no legal moves, it’s a stalemate. When you’re down to just your King, that’s about all you have left to hope for, but no experienced player who’s ahead would allow a stalemate to occur. In this situation, you don’t even need the Rook. ---
**Author:** ![jiHymas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@jiHymas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jiHymas)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/8 "2003-01-08T06:46:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Achernar \* > **… but no experienced player who’s ahead would allow a stalemate to occur.** Yes, it is stalemate and it is a draw, but sometimes this is a critical point of the position! I can’t quite contradict **Achernar** (although I’m sure that stalemate has been forced on occasion with best play), but I can refer to one game that illustrates the theme: In _Chess Traps, Pitfalls & Swindles_, I. A. Horowitz & Fred Reinfeld, ISBN 0-671-21041-6, the following position is shown: White: Qc8, Bf5, Kg1, Pawns b7, f2, g2, h3 Black: Qd2, Ng6, Kh7, Pawns f6, g7, h4 which is Blackburne-Winawer (tournament and date not cited), with White to move. The point of this position (Winawer’s last desperate attempt to save the game) is: 1 b8=Q?? Qc1+!! 2 Kh2 … (if 2 Q:ci, then stalemate) 2 … Qf4+!! 3 Kg1 … (if 3 Q:f4, stalemate. if 3 g3, then 3…Q:f2+ and draws by perpetual) 3 … Qc1+!! and black draws by perpetual check. Blackburne actually played 1 B:g6 and Winawer resigned. The punctuation above is from the book: I would agree with the “??”, but award a single exclamation point solely to black’s first, not “!!” to all three moves. The motif does not come up very often in master play - problems are another matter - but is a very beautiful subtlety when it does. ---
**Author:** ![Houlihan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Houlihan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Houlihan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/9 "2003-01-08T13:09:08Z")
Good old I. A. Horowitz! “Solitaire Chess” and “Winning Chess Tactics Illustrated.” Favorites of my childhood, trapped by parental visitation in my father’s house with NOTHING to do but learn how to play chess. ---
**Author:** ![bryanmcc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@bryanmcc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bryanmcc)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/10 "2003-01-08T23:08:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Achernar \* > \*\*In this situation, you don’t even need the Rook. \*\* Or you could do it without the queen, if you prefer. It is possible to mate with just the rook and king. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Maximino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e95f7d/32.png) [@Mighty\_Maximino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Maximino)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/11 "2003-01-08T23:23:26Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Achernar \* > When you’re down to just your King, that’s about all you have left to hope for, but no experienced player who’s ahead would allow a stalemate to occur._\* True, but even experienced players make mistakes. I seem to recall that Kasparov accidentally drew a game he was winning and became so flustered that he eventually lost the tournament, but I’ll have to look the moves up. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/12 "2003-01-08T23:24:00Z")
Heck, you can stalemate with just a Pawn and a King. Or any single piece and a King, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![bryanmcc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@bryanmcc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bryanmcc)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/13 "2003-01-08T23:44:08Z")
**Achernar** , granted. I just wanted to point out that it didn’t have to be a queen. And since, for the position in question, Black only also had a rook… **Mighty** , I believe to game to which you are referring occurred during a blitz tournament. It’s discussed in “The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Chess,” among other places. ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/14 "2003-01-09T01:25:49Z")
Ah, yes, one of my great triumphs of casual play. I was down to my King, opponent queened her only pawn. “I assume you know how to win with King & Queen vs. King?” she said. “Yes,” I replied, “but I don’t know if you do.” About eight moves later (very annoyed moves, too, on her part), I was pleased to announce a stalemate. Damn, I’m a jerk sometimes. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jiHymas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@jiHymas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jiHymas)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/15 "2003-01-09T23:09:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Achernar \* > **Heck, you can stalemate with just a Pawn and a King.** Yes, and it’s probably reasonable in the context of this thread to consider the position: White: King e6, Pawn d7 Black: King d8 If it is black to move, he loses: 1 … Kc7 2 Ke7 any 3 d8=Q and mate soon follows (unless you’re playing **SCSimmons** ’ friend! :D). If it is white to move, it’s a draw. The only move which does not allow black to capture the pawn is Kd6, which is stalemate. The above position (or its mirror image, and perhaps shifted by a few files … must be precise!) is fundamental to the study of end-games. It is the first position you learn when studying end-games. An aspiring player of fine endgames must know all about it, and how to play simple King and Pawn endgames that will eventually become this position before he can do anything else. If this position, and how to achieve it with best play on both sides, is not known, you don’t know how to evaluate, say, whether to swap rooks in a R+P vs. R endgame … and on and on until you get to the point where you don’t know how to play a middlegame, since you can’t evaluate whether or not to enter the endgame phase. Thus, one may say that the concept of stalemate is fundamental to chess. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/16 "2003-01-10T00:57:37Z")
Indeed, I rarely lose games to my lesser-skilled friends. My win/draw/lose percentages are probably 75/20/5. It isn’t that I hate losing—I’m not really that competitive—but I love trying to get a stalemate when I’m losing. It can be quite a challenge. I enforce 50 moves, three-state, and the standard “king can’t move” rules. Try this: > **[International Chess Federation - FIDE](https://www.fide.com/official/handbook.asp?level=EE101)** > > International Chess Federation - FIDE ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/17 "2003-01-11T20:33:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > \*\* > > I enforce 50 moves, three-state, and the standard “king can’t move” rules. > > \*\* hmmm I haven’t played in years… What is the three-state rule? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/18 "2003-01-11T20:46:32Z")
The board cannot be (end up) in the same state three times, with all pieces in the same place. This tends to happen around tough checkmates when kings and bishops (for example) oscillate. In the link above I gave, see 5.2.d and 9.2. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/19 "2003-01-11T20:48:10Z")
As 9.2 indicates, though, it needn’t happen because of repitious moves. Indeed, only the board state itself need be considered. But since I am not quite nerdy enough to record the board state in any way this one never comes up, and is probably quite rare anyway. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-chess-question/147209/20 "2003-01-11T23:52:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jiHymas \* > \*\*The point of this position (Winawer’s last desperate attempt to save the game) is: > > 1 b8=Q?? Qc1+!! > 2 Kh2 … > > (if 2 Q:ci, then stalemate) > > 2 … Qf4+!! > 3 Kg1 … > > (if 3 Q:f4, stalemate. > if 3 g3, then 3…Q:f2+ and draws by perpetual) > > 3 … Qc1+!! > > and black draws by perpetual check. > > Blackburne actually played 1 B:g6 and Winawer resigned. The punctuation above is from the book: I would agree with the “??”, but award a single exclamation point solely to black’s first, not “!!” to all three moves. > > The motif does not come up very often in master play - problems are another matter - but is a very beautiful subtlety when it does. \*\* Of course a draw by repetition of the position is not a stalemate. The 50-move rule apparently has not been rescinded, even though computers have shown that some positions cannot be won in 50 moves. [http://www.kemmunet.net.mt/chessmalta/fidelaws/article9.html](http://www.kemmunet.net.mt/chessmalta/fidelaws/article9.html) > [@](#): > > Article 9: The drawn game > > 9.1. A player can propose a draw after making a move on the chessboard. He must do so before stopping his own clock and starting his opponent’s clock. An offer at any other time during play is still valid, but Article 12.5 must be considered. No conditions can be attached to the offer. In both cases the offer cannot be withdrawn and remains valid until the opponent accepts it, rejects it orally, rejects it by making a move, or the game is concluded in some other way. > > The offer of a draw shall be noted by each player on his scoresheet with the symbol (=). > > 9.2. The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by repetition of moves) > > (a) is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or > > (b) has just appeared. > > Positions as in (a) and (b) are considered the same, if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares, and the possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same. Positions are not the same if a pawn could have been captured en passant or if the right to castle immediately or in the future has been changed. > > 9.3. The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, if > > (a) he writes on his scoresheet, and declares to the arbiter his intention to make a move which shall result in the last 50 moves having been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without the capture of any piece, or > > (b) the last 50 consecutive moves have been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without the capture of any piece. > > 9.4. If the player makes a move without having claimed the draw he loses the right to claim, as in Article 9.2 or 9.3, on that move . > > 9.5. If a player claims a draw as in Article 9.2 or 9.3 he shall immediately stop both clocks. He is not allowed to withdraw his claim. > > (a) If the claim is found to be correct the game is immediately drawn. > > (b) If the claim is found to be incorrect, the arbiter shall deduct half of the claimant’s remaining time up to a maximum of three minutes and add three minutes to the opponent’s remaining time. Then the game shall continue and the intended move must be made. > > 9.6. The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled play. This immediately ends the game.