# A "Christian-Israelite-Identity" and a "Kinist-Pro-Nomian-Theonomist" **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 4, 2021, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363 "2021-04-04T01:37:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363/21 "2021-04-06T04:10:50Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I agree the guy has fallen off the deep end, but the only way they ever come back is with relationships to others. I would probably keep talking to him as long as I can stand it and he doesn’t act up. You seem to be done ng a good job pointing out problems without alienating him, which is impressive. > > With me. I’d probably be getting too angry at this point. But you seem okay, so I’d stick it out, but with an eye towards leaving if it becomes too much. Thanks for your thoughts, **Big T**. I totally agree with your comment about “relationship”. That comment is very “UU” and of course that the church I attend. I’ve always had an open door policy during my child-raising years, and I like to claim that I have about 3.75 “spare” children that I’ve collected over the years. One stayed here regularly for about 9 years! I also like to use the Socratic method and/or some Street Epistemology techniques to try to lead someone to the logical conclusion of their position(s) if possible and people won’t move on a position if you are condescending, angry, rude, mean, etc. So I guess that’s why I’m willing to engage this kid. My thought is that this guy doesn’t really want to shoot people or live in a theocracy. I think he’s an awkward, lonely, introverted, heavy internet user living in a small town\* and that he probably just found himself surrounded by supportive on-line “friends” who reinforce whatever biases, grievances, and unhappiness they all share together. I was hoping that at best, provided what I think I know about him is true, that I could be an “outside” voice and ask some (gently and some not so gently) pointed questions that would lead him to the logical conclusion that he things he is doing are not likely to lead him to the things he says he wants in life. And of course, being a skeptical person by nature, I also have to keep in mind that the whole thing could just be BS so make sure to not get terribly invested in it. \*Very religious family, few church visits due to family Bible studies, hometown of 3,000, homeschooled until 4, a reader, awkward with few friends during public school years, no girlfriend, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363/22 "2021-04-06T04:13:22Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > And it’s not Christian-Israelite. It’s a detached belief – disconnected from the Christian Israelites and from Christian Israelite theology. Telling people that you identify with “Christian Israelite Identity” is like telling people that you identify as a Martian – it tells people that your identity politics are naive, and it also draws attention to the fact that you _aren’t_ Martian. > > There are other people that have race-based religions and identity based religions. You should be able to think of a couple without any effort. Being a member of a race-based or identity-based religion doesn’t automatically make you a bad person. In the range of race-base religions, the Christian Israelites are indeed just a small odd Christian denomination. Even in the wider range of human behavior, the CI are just a small odd group. CI ‘identifiers’ are a sad group of individuals who aren’t even hooked up to the CI. I really appreciate your thought on this “Christian-Israelite-Identity” business. I’ve asked my "friend for more information- see below. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363/23 "2021-04-06T04:14:36Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Please tell me you are not insinuating there is something wrong in belonging to a group that identifies itself as G-d’s own people? Keeping kosher is an act of obedience. Something you deliberately snipped out in order to make your point. Like you translated “sad” to “wrong”. This isn’t GD. I don’t define Jewishness as family, community, synagogue, culture, behavior, or belief, but I think that where there are _none_ of those things, it’s a hollow identity. Even so, I don’t think that there is anything inherently wrong with hollow identities: a thing of beauty can be a joy even if it’s insubstantial. I think that it’s a bit sad trying to build on a hollow identity, because a hollow identity doesn’t give you anything substantial to build on. Hopefully those reading at this point who are self-identifying as ‘hollow’ also have something else to anchor to, or at least can see land on the horizon. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363/24 "2021-04-06T04:27:19Z")
Well I haven’t heard from my new internet friend for a couple of days. I had asked for some clarification on this “Christian-Israelite-Identity” business. I said: "Hey- thanks for the expansion. I appreciate it! This is complicated! I really haven’t spoken with someone with these kids of ideas before. I can see why you said earlier that your views are unusual and not always well-received. Let me restate what I think you’ve said: You identify as both a Christian Israelite Identity and a Kinist Pro-Nomian Theonomist who wishes to live under Mosaic Common Law, and that these ideas speak to you because you yourself are descended from Europeans who themselves are descended from one of the Lost Tribes of Israel (who fled to the Caucus Mountains and I suppose while there lost the brown tint to their/your skin over time that is typical of people born in the now Middle East)? Do the terms Christian Identity and Israelite contradict each other? I guess I’ve seen “Israelite” to mean “Jewish” so I guess I’m confused about how one can be a Christian and Jewish at the same time. (You know I’m not religious so correct me if I’m wrong.) It seems the term Christian Identity is also used today as a politer or more socially acceptable way to say “white supremacist”. Would you agree or disagree with that? Help me with Pro-Nomian Theonomist- I think that means “for the law, God’s law” but I’m not getting much more out of it than that. Does this mean, or is it a just a repetition of, "to live under Mosaic Law (as in the laws on the OT on things such as the Ten C’s, diet, clothing, etc.)? Kinist- that seems easy enough- sticking with ones “kind”. Since there are so few of you already who would qualify as Christian Israelite Identists (?), do you worry about genetic degradation such as the fumerase deficiency seen in the FLDS when reproducing in such small groups? Or that members might have to go to the “Lot’s daughters” kind of thing to keep the tribe from dying out completely which still leaves the group reproducing too closely for health? And how actively are you pursuing achieving your desire to live this way? Is that what the guns are for? To bring about the events that will lead to this? And, finally, is there any place here in the US or in the world where people live with ideals like these already?" Sometimes he takes a couple of days to respond and he hasn’t responded yet. Maybe he lost interest, maybe he is thinking about the answers, or perhaps I just hit him with too many questions all at once. But I’m not really invested in his responding either. If he does, he does. If he doesn’t he doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363/25 "2021-04-06T05:03:22Z")
Sorry, but I don’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363/26 "2021-04-06T15:49:38Z")
I admire OP’s restraint in not calling this dude a dangerous lunatic in serious need of professional mental help. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363/27 "2021-04-06T20:32:57Z")
> [@Quicksilver](#): > > I admire OP’s restraint in not calling this dude a dangerous lunatic in serious need of professional mental help. I do think that is true, though. I just don’t think that’s the best way to change someone’s mind about something. Doing it that way causes “the backfire effect” which just causes them to dig their heels in deeper. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363/28 "2021-04-06T20:34:37Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Sorry, but I don’t understand What do you not understand? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363/29 "2021-04-06T20:37:55Z")
> [@Ca3799](#): > > I just don’t think that’s the best way to change someone’s mind about something. Doing it that way causes “the backfire effect” which just causes them to dig their heels in deeper. Undoubtedly true. But I’m a man of little empathy to spare for certain types of mind sets. It’s a character flaw I’ve learned to live with. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363/30 "2021-04-06T20:38:42Z")
> [@Ca3799](#): > > What do you not understand? The entire post. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363/31 "2021-04-06T20:39:59Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > The entire post. Nor did I. Best to just move on. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363/32 "2021-04-06T21:30:11Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Best to just move on. Yeah, especially if it was going to be a tangent of many many posts, that could easily devolve into something along the lines of “No, _THIS_ is what makes a Jew a Jew…” (I’m one of the few Gentiles in my poker gang, and I’ve listened to a lot of these.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363/33 "2021-04-07T06:03:41Z")
The way I read that post wasn’t that it’s “sad to be a Jew”, which seemed to be how **RC** read it, but that it’s sad to want to belong so hard to a group you’re not a member of, that you have to _invent a new version of that group_ for yourself just to belong _somewhere_. That there are ways to convert to Judaism, and different ways to be Jewish, is kind of besides the point. The guy in question isn’t making use of _any_ of those ways, he’s part of group inventing an entirely new White supremacist racist grouping that they’re _calling_ the one true Jewishness. Which is _beyond_ sad, IMO. It’s pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363/34 "2021-04-07T07:22:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The way I read that post wasn’t that it’s “sad to be a Jew”, which seemed to be how **RC** read it, but that it’s sad to want to belong so hard to a group you’re not a member of, that you have to _invent a new version of that group_ for yourself just to belong _somewhere_ . That’s what I understood too. I’m not interested in a “No True Scotsman” type discussion here. It deviates from my OP which is about my interactions with a possible white nationalist/white supremacist. While my discussion with this guy does delve into what he views as making him a member of a particular religious group, if folks want to argue about what generally makes a particular religious person generally a member of a particular religion, they can take that over to GD or the BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2021, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363/35 "2021-04-07T07:25:37Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > The entire post. Just my post or all of the posts? If it’s just my posts, feel free to ask any questions you may have. If you don’t understand any of the posts in this thread and how they’ve built upon each other, then I’m not sure that I can help you catch up. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363/36 "2021-04-11T23:10:31Z")
Update: We still continue to “talk” (PM). He attempted to clarify the CII-KPNT stuff but it doesn’t really make sense to me. We’re now talking about “Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs”. My position is that most average women (and most average men) would see the 3 AR/AK’s laying unsecured around his home and find that off-putting. He thinks that the weapons are like having a first-aid kit. My position is that just owning these “not normal” for home defense weapons would cast a shadow of doubt about him that would be hard to overcome if the people he met IRL didn’t share his unusual beliefs. I said that nobody would much question the owning of a handgun or a conventional rifle- both of which should be stored in a gun safe when not in use and not lying loosely around in his bedroom. I said that these 3 AR/AK’s would prevent people from wanting to make friendly or romantic relationships with him and their presence would prevent him from achieving the stages above “Safety and Security” on Maslow’s scale. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-christian-israelite-identity-and-a-kinist-pro-nomian-theonomist/939363.md?page=1)