# A civilised British politics debate thread - Can it be done? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175 "2003-11-25T13:46:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/61 "2003-11-26T12:49:51Z")
Sentient meat: that is a doctrine of dispair. There most certainly are efficiency saving to be made in all the public sector. Go and have a look in today’s guardian and add up all the salaries of the jobs that NO ONE would miss. it will run to millions. And that’s in one week. There is money to be saved. Let’s save it. Also there is money being spent on things that we simply don’t need (olympics, domes, scotland and so on). That can be cut painlessly. I fully accept that the american model is bollocks. That’s why I don’t want to copy it. But I do think we should do something, the present situation is also bollocks. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/62 "2003-11-26T12:54:28Z")
I once read an article that claimed - not unreasonably, if I remember - that it’s inevitable that the costs associated with a national health service can only go on climbing. The increasing cost of new technology and medicines, the provision of treatments for new ailments or where treatments were previously unavailable, the growth in population and the increasing age of the population all contribute to an inevitable rise in costs. A government can only hope to manage these through increased funding or reduced services. I’m sure some of the factors are arguable, but the broad argument made sense to me. Whether Labour, Conservative or Liberal Democrat, the idea of reducing costs is a red herring; more efficient cost management may help, but it won’t act as a magic wand, and the temptation will exist to pass on any savings to other areas of social policy (education, law and order, defence and so on). I’m undecided. I’d like to see a reduction in NHS services to help manage this, but I don’t know enough to know how to define “unnecessary” services. Cosmetic surgery feels like an obvious choice, but what then for disfigured children or accident victims? Is there any way means testing could work for non-essential services, or would that just add another layer of inefficient bureaucracy and delays in providing services? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/63 "2003-11-26T13:02:22Z")
Efficiency is what all public sector institutions have been striving for for years, **owl**. _Of course_ improvements can be made, but your vision of schools, the police and the NHS getting better results with fewer staff is utter nonsense. The olympics and domes are small beans. Agreed, the money to be saved will be millions, but the spending shortfall in fundamentals compared to the rest of the industrialised world is _billions_. You are giving the patient on the operating table a makeover and saying they’ll be fine. It was historically the left which was accused of fluffy-headed idealism. Conservative economics now seem to come direct from cloud cuckooland. ---
**Author:** ![notquitekarpov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@notquitekarpov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notquitekarpov)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/64 "2003-11-26T13:13:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by owlstretchingtime \* > **The Tory revival: Is it happening or are they dead in the water? Will Howard make a difference, bring a greater credibility and lay a glove or two on Blair, or is it a lost cause?** > > Yes, it is but part of a long process. Howard is too tainted with extremist past statements to survive an election campaign but is a safe pair of hands and will command party discipline which is the first stage on the road to recovery. He will be dumped next mid-term. > > **Chirac Visit: Does this prove that Britain is on a collision cause with Europe over defence and federalism. Or is it a storm in a teacup?** > > It proves nothing. The expansion of the EU will finally driving the project down a path more in line with the UKs views. Subsidiarity will increasingly govern EU policy - and the EU Constitution is overplayed as a threat. > > **The Blair/Brown rift: Does it exist? Does it matter? Where do both go from here?** > > Sure does exist and matters greatly. My bet is that Blair will be dumped by his own party before the next election in a Brown-coup, who has managed to keep his hands clean over Iraq which will take Blair down for misleading the House, and blaitant lies to the electorate. He will not be forgiven, it is the Tory revival that will trigger the coup as Labour will be another shoe-in with Brown as PM. > > **The West Lothian Question: England now has foundation Hospitals because of the votes of Scottish MPs. Can this be allowed to go on? If not – what do we do?** > > It shouldn’t but it will probably continue. My bet will be regional English devolution as the next big project to avoid having to disenfranchise the Scottish MPs prior to guaranteeing in advance next areas of one-party rule for Labour within England. > > **What to do with the Lords? Is the current arrangement acceptable? If not where do we go from here?** > > No but again will probably continue. I would prefer it back as it was as the last bastion to an elective dictatorship, the worse thing that could have would be for it to become a Friends of Tony fief. > > These are just suggestions, feel free to ignore and add your own. My partisan answers are below in a separate post. \*\* Those views certainly are pretty partisan! ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/65 "2003-11-26T13:19:23Z")
the difficulty of british politics is that the battle-lines are no longer between the parties but within them. maybe this deserves a new debate: but isnt a big thorn in the side of efficient public services the Treasury’s rules that money given to gov. departments has to be spent that year and cant be saved for the next year? Or have i got the wrong end of the stick ? ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/66 "2003-11-26T13:20:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crusoe \* > \*\*I once read an article that claimed - not unreasonably, if I remember - that it’s inevitable that the costs associated with a national health service can only go on climbing. The increasing cost of new technology and medicines, the provision of treatments for new ailments or where treatments were previously unavailable, the growth in population and the increasing age of the population all contribute to an inevitable rise in costs. A government can only hope to manage these through increased funding or reduced services. > \*\* This is in line with the point I was trying to make about the NHS. It was set up in the 40s when the costs of medicine, and people’s expectations were unrecognisable from today. It may well have been the best possible system for 1945, but it doesn’t work anymore. Much the same has happened to the state pension, and the answer in both cases is the same. The state should provide basic health care for its citizens and an income for it’s pensioners, but shouldn’t be relied on for total provision. People are much wealthier than they were in 1945, and should be willing to contribute to their care etc, and if they do they should have this acknowledged. I don’t know about you but I don’t plan to inflict state health care or education on my family. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/67 "2003-11-26T13:23:27Z")
Elected sheriffs and police commissioners? As an American, I might as well warn you that in major metropolitan areas of our country, the elected sheriffs have a tendency to aspire for higher office, such as mayorships, and run their offices politically. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/68 "2003-11-26T13:31:18Z")
> [@](#): > > It may well have been the best possible system for 1945, but it doesn’t work anymore. Where _does_? > [@](#): > > I don’t know about you but I don’t plan to inflict state health care or education on my family. Gosh. To think, I went to a comprehensive and got a PhD in physics - _what are the chances??_ ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/69 "2003-11-26T13:39:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > \*\* > Gosh. To think, I went to a comprehensive and got a PhD in physics - _what are the chances??_ \*\* A comprehensive in inner-london? Which is where I live. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/70 "2003-11-26T13:39:45Z")
I think I’d take the ‘inefficiency’ of a NHS over the profit margin per x-ray, the profit-led bonuses of the directors and local bosses, the dividends of the shareholder, etc. etc. any day. Privatisation is a nonsence panacea. A private system encourages waste so much more than does a state system because there is profit on everything done; why take two e-rays when the profit on six is so much more? And that’s what it comes down to for me, two different forms of market inefficiency. We just have to deal with the inefficiency as best we can. I also think there is no _solution_, health care will always be a war that cannot be won. You only ever win or lose battles i.e. _there is no ultimate solution_, no final resolution to the issues - that mindset is wholly misleading, but it suits the ‘reformers’ pov. Straw man, etc. The issue of health care is on going by its very nature (not conveniently solved by capitalist conventions - square peg, round hole), and always will be. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/71 "2003-11-26T13:44:58Z")
> [@](#): > > I fully accept that the american model is bollocks. That’s why I don’t want to copy it. So presumably you would be horrified to learn that our levels of [spending](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_spe_pub) are similar to America’s, and lag way behind France and Germany? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/72 "2003-11-26T13:47:21Z")
> [@](#): > > A comprehensive in inner-london? Liverpool. Your point? ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/73 "2003-11-26T13:50:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > \*\*Liverpool. Your point? \*\* That the ones in inner london are pretty crap - ask Diane Abbot. Not all of them admittedly, but too many. In a perfect world I wouldn’t be planning on spending £50k+ pa to send the bin lids to private schools, but the state alternative isn’t an alternative if one is lucky to have the choice. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/74 "2003-11-26T13:57:32Z")
Liverpool’s no fairy story either, **owl**. Diane Abbot is despicable. Have some faith, mate, and get extra tuition if you must. Your bin lid might turn out like me. I saw that! ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/75 "2003-11-26T14:05:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by owlstretchingtime \* > **It was also probably the greatest spreading of wealth in the nation’s history. That money will cascade down the generations. Money = choices. These people now have choices. If they spend it all on scratchcards, sunbeds and skydishes - that’s up to them** It was a spreading of wealth from **Councils** , who tend to spend their money of Schools, Libraries, Police and other boring things to **Individuals** who subsequently sold up and spent the profit on all of the above rubbish. I don’t doubt those individuals benefited, but I believe that the wealth was better off exactly where it was. > [@](#): > > **Is there anyone who thinks that the way the NHS is currently set up is the best possible way to deliver health care? Or even that it’s the least bad?** No, it isn’t. And it’s all down to **funding**. The UK has no right to expect or demand a world class health service if it refuses to pay for it. Compare the figures with the rest of Europe. They don’t lie. > [@](#): > > **Let’s acknowledge that the private sector has a role to play and encourage it to bid for business. Make the governemnt the commisioning body and let the private sector be the executive arm, or at least a very large part of it.** Yes. Because the private sector has made _such_ a success with other national monopolies. Who can remember the mess the railways were in before the private sector was given it for pennies. Now our railways are brilliant! Aren’t they? > [@](#): > > \*\*If people are prudent enougfh to make their own health provision (bupa etc) then they should be rewarded by having a tax concession. \*\* BUPA etc are leeches living off the investments made in the NHS. Any indirect funding by Government (as this would be) is a slap in the face of the NHS. > [@](#): > > **This will save money - so taxes can come down. THis sacred cow has got to go to bovine university** \* The sacred cow here is reducing taxes. I say again; if you want the best you have to pay for it. > [@](#): > > **And the EU is not us. It’s them. Social democaratic welfare state expanding high tax and spend countries. That’s not anything I want any part of.** Then vote against it. If not enough vote with you, well then, tough. The EU is us. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/76 "2003-11-26T14:20:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Futile Gesture \* > **It was a spreading of wealth from Councils, who tend to spend their money of Schools, Libraries, Police and other boring things to Individuals who subsequently sold up and spent the profit on all of the above rubbish. I don’t doubt those individuals benefited, but I believe that the wealth was better off exactly where it was.** > > What wealth did the councils lose. No council has ever shown a profit on council rents - and there are strict laws against cross subsidies. In fact changing from tenats to leaseholders MAKES councils money - leaseholdersd pay for maintainance etc, tenants don’t. > . > \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_- > > No, it isn’t. And it’s all down to **funding**. The UK has no right to expect or demand a world class health service if it refuses to pay for it. Compare the figures with the rest of Europe. They don’t lie. > > * * * > > Funding schmunding. > > The pit is bottomless and there will never be “enough” funding. It’s restructuring and management of expectations that’s required. I have an idea of a way to change things - but it should be a national debate. > > But the first thing we have got to get rid of is the belief that the NHS is the “envy of the world”. > > * * * > > Yes. Because the private sector has made _such_ a success with other national monopolies. Who can remember the mess the railways were in before the private sector was given it for pennies. Now our railways are brilliant! Aren’t they? > > * * * > > The railways are a mess but BT, BA are much better than the nationlised incarnations. > > * * * > > BUPA etc are leeches living off the investments made in the NHS. Any indirect funding by Government (as this would be) is a slap in the face of the NHS. > > * * * > > Let’s slap that overfed, underperforming, bureaocrat ridden face as hard as we can. > > incidentaly Bupa is a charity as is PPP. > > \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_- > Then vote against it. If not enough vote with you, well then, tough. The EU is us. \*\* Not for much longer if I have anything to do with it, but it is of course a democratic country. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/77 "2003-11-26T15:27:56Z")
Health spending per head (private and public combined) from SentientMeats link US: 4271 Germany: 2697 France: 2288 UK: 1675 Will John Q Public be better off paying $x more in taxes to fund the NHS or paying $x on private insurance? ---
**Author:** ![Planet\_of\_the\_Shapes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Planet\_of\_the\_Shapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Planet_of_the_Shapes)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/78 "2003-11-26T15:40:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by owlstretchingtime \* > \*\*And the EU is not us. It’s them. \*\* Any EU country can say this as any particular nationality is always going to be outnumbered by the other 11. > [@](#): > > \*\*Social democaratic welfare state expanding high tax and spend countries. That’s not anything I want any part of. \*\* Hmm… So how would you class a country with a fairly comprehensive welfare state, rising taxes, and state provided health, education, and housing? Presumably you don’t want any part of the UK either then? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/79 "2003-11-26T15:41:32Z")
> [@](#): > > first thing we have got to get rid of is the belief that the NHS is the “envy of the world”. Agreed. Now, if you would like to answer the question: \*Where do **you** think is? You appear to be ducking this issue. We agree that British healthcare lags behind other countries. But then you come out with this: > [@](#): > > Funding schmunding… It’s restructuring and management of expectations that’s required. This seems to contradict itself. Are you saying that we should resign ourselves to healthcare which lags behind other countries, or that “restructuring” could deliver healthcare comparable to these countries? (BTW, if you wish to quote somebody, just type"quote" in square brackets before the snippet and “/quote” in square brackets afterwards). ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175/80 "2003-11-26T15:44:38Z")
_Erratum:_ …or that “restructuring” **alone** could deliver healthcare comparable to these countries? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-civilised-british-politics-debate-thread-can-it-be-done/215175.md?page=5)