# A "Classical Education." **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 29, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-classical-education/504675 "2009-07-29T15:44:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-classical-education/504675/1 "2009-07-29T15:44:52Z")
I periodically run across references to a “classical education”, mainly in historical fiction although I’ve seen references in non-fiction as well. Question: What was a classical education, in say the 1700s and what would be the modern equivalent? Just curious ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-classical-education/504675/2 "2009-07-29T16:07:20Z")
The “classics” were Ancient Greek and Latin literature, and a Classical education meant learning Greek and Latin so you could read those authors. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-classical-education/504675/3 "2009-07-29T16:15:31Z")
You can still get a classical education (I did!) but you usually have to wait until college these days. A ‘Liberal Arts’ degree is probably the closest analogy in that lots more people get it and it is generally considered to be a ‘well-rounded’ education with no particular career goals attached. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-classical-education/504675/4 "2009-07-29T16:15:34Z")
It was the course of studies in medieval universities. The trivium (grammar, logic, and rhetoric) followed by the quadrivium (arithmetic, astronomy, geometry, and music). ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-classical-education/504675/5 "2009-07-29T16:34:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It was the course of studies in medieval universities. The trivium (grammar, logic, and rhetoric) followed by the quadrivium (arithmetic, astronomy, geometry, and music). However, I think that had gone out of fashion by the 17th century, though some elements survived in high schools and in universities. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-classical-education/504675/6 "2009-07-29T16:49:23Z")
It’s still around in a modified sense: [classical education movement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_education_movement). ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-classical-education/504675/7 "2009-07-29T17:16:41Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > However, I think that had gone out of fashion by the 17th century, though some elements survived in high schools and in universities. AFAIK upper-class English boys were still getting classical educations (as in Latin and Greek as a major part of education) right up through the 30’s–the 20th century gradually killed it off pretty well, but even after WWII it was still limping along a bit. Grammar schools were originally the schools where you learned Latin grammar. Nowadays, classical education has been remodeled for the modern kid and has become popular in certain charter schools, private schools, and with a segment of the homeschooling population. I’m a classical homeschooler myself. The idea is to go through the stages of grammar, logic, and rhetoric in studies, plus rather a lot of history–Latin and Greek somewhat optional but definitely encouraged. Some folks maintain that Latin ought to be the backbone of a true classical education, but they are relatively few. The Dorothy Sayers essay that inspired all this can be found [here](http://www.gbt.org/text/sayers.html); it’s kind of a fun read. ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-classical-education/504675/8 "2009-07-29T18:31:41Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > The “classics” were Ancient Greek and Latin literature, and a Classical education meant learning Greek and Latin so you could read those authors. [Well, isn’t that just greats](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literae_Humaniores). ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-classical-education/504675/9 "2009-07-29T20:00:18Z")
Thanks for the input. I appreciate your replies. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-classical-education/504675/10 "2009-07-29T20:36:04Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > Nowadays, classical education has been remodeled for the modern kid and has become popular in certain charter schools, private schools, and with a segment of the homeschooling population. I’m a classical homeschooler myself. The idea is to go through the stages of grammar, logic, and rhetoric in studies, plus rather a lot of history–Latin and Greek somewhat optional but definitely encouraged. Some folks maintain that Latin ought to be the backbone of a true classical education, but they are relatively few. I got an education like that in high school, but then I went to kind of an unusual high school. Latin and Greek all the way through. Also plenty of grammar, logic and rhetoric (gathered together under the rubric of philosophy). We had enough math and science to satisfy the state. More than enough, really. The same with all the other high school basics. It was (and still is) a Jesuit school. Classes were small (there were around 100-120 boys in each year). Admission was limited to those who passed a battery of tests and interviews with the prospective student and his parents. Back then, I thought the workload was crushing. The faculty told the parents of the students that if their sons weren’t doing four hours of homework every night, then they weren’t doing their homework. Parents were expected to check. Students were permitted to fail one class, in the first year, but after that, if a student failed a class, he was expelled. And the failing grade was ten points higher than the failing grade in public or other Catholic schools. As I said, back then, I thought it was all pretty crushing. It was much harder than college turned out to be. Now, I’m grateful. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-classical-education/504675/11 "2009-07-29T20:53:53Z")
I graduated from college in 2001 and I’m probably one of the last people around to take Latin Prose Composition. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-classical-education/504675/12 "2009-07-29T22:10:41Z")
> [@DaphneBlack](#): > > A ‘Liberal Arts’ degree is probably the closest analogy in that lots more people get it and it is generally considered to be a ‘well-rounded’ education with no particular career goals attached. The average liberal arts degree doesn’t include nearly enough math or science to be truly equivalent to a classical education. ---
**Author:** ![DaphneBlack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daphneblack/32/5389_2.png) [@DaphneBlack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaphneBlack)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-classical-education/504675/13 "2009-07-29T23:53:49Z")
> [@Chez\_Guevara](#): > > [Well, isn’t that just greats](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literae_Humaniores). 😉 > [@Zsofia](#): > > I graduated from college in 2001 and I’m probably one of the last people around to take Latin Prose Composition. 🙂 I did it in 2003. 🙂 Despite being a Classics grad student, I have to say, I did _not_ enjoy prose comp. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-classical-education/504675/14 "2009-07-30T00:41:30Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > The average liberal arts degree doesn’t include nearly enough math or science to be truly equivalent to a classical education. This is probably true, but - in shameless defense of my alma mater - there are [some](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John%27s_College,_U.S.) which do. Is the math and science I studied a direct equivalent to the math and science my sister studied as she worked towards her engineering degree at a technical school? Hell no. Was it eight solid semesters of math and six of science, which true to the classical ideal covered a wide range of topics? Yep. (Did it cause me many, many moments in which I wondered _why_ I was in pretty much the one liberal arts program in the world that would force me to study chemistry and physics? Why yes, yes it did.) ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2009, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-classical-education/504675/15 "2009-07-30T06:28:37Z")
My stepson graduated from St. John’s Annapolis where the basic texts are _The Great Books of the Western World_. There are others in addition to those. He and his wife both loved the program there. I believe it’s the third oldest college in the country. And Annapolis is absolutely charming. If you really, really like to read and are interested in a classical education, [St. John’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John%27s_College,_U.S.#Curriculum_overview) also has a campus in Santa Fe. The link gives a curriculum overview including the “Great Books.”