# A Compromise on Abortion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677 "2003-05-07T15:40:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/21 "2003-05-07T18:42:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > \*\*I don’t know that you’re naive, but I’d say you’re overgeneralizing. There are women whose health will not support giving birth. > > I’m worried about the fuzziness here: the 7 months isn’t a precise date, and you can’t give an exact date of the age of a fetus either. I feel like eventually, it’d turn into the same argument with different numbers: ‘why does a woman at 6.5 months need to have an abortion, there’s little difference between 6.5 months and 7…’ > \*\* You’re right, I am generalizing the 7month date because I don’t have access to my physiology text book at the moment. There is a very specific date at which the fetus’ lungs are considered developed enough to support life outside of the mother. Before this date the fetus has zero chance. It is my opinion that at some point there shouldn’t be a choice between the mother or the fetus, it should simply be both. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > \*\*How would you have an abortion if you didn’t know you were pregnant??? > \*\* Simple, take the abortion pill, at the moment the name escapes me. My point is that if you took this pill without knowing you were pregnant, would it be an abortion? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/22 "2003-05-07T18:51:57Z")
Um, why would you take an “abortion pill” if you didn’t think you were pregnant? If you’re thinking of the morning after pill-it’s NOT an abortion! Sheesh. Besides, I doubt that women would want to have a late term abortion-most of them are quite invasive. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/23 "2003-05-07T18:57:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\* > As a matter of fact, I’d like to take this opportunity (once again, I’ve requested it in other threads where the same “not alive” claim has been made) to request a standard medical cite that stipulates that a zygote/embryo/fetus is not alive until a beating heart or brain function is present. Remember, the key word is alive, since that is the claim. > > I eagerly await that cite. > \*\* Here’s your [cite](http://my.webmd.com/content/miller_keane/28/miller_keane_9121.htm?lastselectedguid=%7B5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348%7D) If you’re heart is not beating and you have an absence of brain function, you are dead. If you are dead, than you are not alive. Now, according to [The Baby Centre](http://www.babycenter.com/pregnancy/fetaldevelopment/) at 7 weeks the embryo begins to show a heart beat. So back to the OP, can pro-life advocates allow fully elective abortions up until this point? What if make it 6 just incase? I’m looking for some sort of compromise on each side. For the pro-choice advocates, after 7 months (lung development) could we say that the fetus deserve as much medical attention as the mother? ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/24 "2003-05-07T19:05:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emacknight \* > \*\*Here’s your [cite](http://my.webmd.com/content/miller_keane/28/miller_keane_9121.htm?lastselectedguid=%7B5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348%7D) > > If you’re heart is not beating and you have an absence of brain function, you are dead. If you are dead, than you are not alive. > \*\* Bzz… sorry. Not the cite I asked for. Read carefully this time. A standard medical cite that stipulates that a zygote/embryo/fetus is **not** alive until a beating heart or brain function is present. Otherwise you’re telling me (giggle) that a **dead** organism (giggle) is growing, undergoing cell division, increasing in size and complexity.(giggle) Is that **really** what you’re claiming? (And you own a physiology textbook? :rolleyes ) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/25 "2003-05-07T19:07:54Z")
For the most part, it does-however, if the woman’s health will suffer severely, or her life is in danger-she comes first. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/26 "2003-05-07T19:12:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\* > Otherwise you’re telling me (giggle) that a **dead** organism (giggle) is growing, undergoing cell division, increasing in size and complexity.(giggle) > \*\* Lots of things are growing inside of you and undergoing cellular division; they are not alive. If your definition of “alive” is that there is growth and cellular division when exactly do we die? Now back to my question, are you willing to allow elective abortions up to 7 weeks? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/27 "2003-05-07T19:15:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*For the most part, it does-however, if the woman’s health will suffer severely, or her life is in danger-she comes first. \*\* This is true of ALL pregnancies though. I can’t think of anything more painful than giving birth. But is there not a point where a _little suffering_ should be expected for the life of the child? If you have the option of saving both the mother and the fetus should you take it? ---
**Author:** ![cj\_finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@cj\_finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cj_finn)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/28 "2003-05-07T19:19:40Z")
emack: One thing you may have overlooked in citing WebMD is that the author of the death definition indicated that there “is at present no standardized diagnosis of clinical death, no precise definition of human death.” The author went on to say that “\*t is recognized that the above criteria are limited in that the notion of irreversibility is not readily agreed upon and may take on new meaning as medical technology advances. The criteria are especially helpful as complements to the traditional criteria of absence of heart beat and lack of spontaneous respiration as indications of death.” Based on the definition cited, it does not appear that one could ever state with any certainty that a child is ‘alive’ until it draws breath. Fetuses do not “breath” until the amniotic fluid is removed from their lungs. This is why many traditions hold that a fetus is not a child until it draws breath. I remember an interesting test used by pathologists to help determine whether a person, usually a mother, was guilty of murdering her child. If the childs lungs would float in water (i.e. a breath had been taken) then it was likely that the child was actually alive at least at some point. Apparently lungs full of amniotic fluid won’t float. However, this test could be so much bunkum. After all, I’m an attorney and only play doctor at home. cj ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/29 "2003-05-07T19:20:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emacknight \* > \*\*Lots of things are growing inside of you and undergoing cellular division; they are not alive. If your definition of “alive” is that there is growth and cellular division when exactly do we die? \*\* **You** provided a definition of “alive” that required a beating heart and functioning brain. **You** said that the zygote and embryo are **dead** until that magical moment. Are bacteria alive? Is the cricket outside my window alive? Is the ant crawling across my floor alive? Is the worm in my garden alive? (I’m not asking about “personhood” or “human” or other attriubutes, just your definition of being “alive”) I have asked twice for a medical cite that says a zygote and embryo are not “alive” until that moment. You still haven’t provided that. If you make the claim, surely you can back it up? ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/30 "2003-05-07T19:25:09Z")
What I don’t get is where all these pregnant women are coming from choosing to wait six or seven months before they abort. I would hazard a WAG that late term abortions are very rarely done for anything but very serious reasons, it being a very difficult decision to make for both patient and doctor. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/31 "2003-05-07T19:27:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*I have asked twice for a medical cite that says a zygote and embryo are not “alive” until that moment. You still haven’t provided that. If you make the claim, surely you can back it up? \*\* And I have asked YOU twice to answer my question! And I asked first! Unless you are willing to allow purely elective abortions before a specific age, you will get no cite from me! ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/32 "2003-05-07T19:31:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emacknight \* > \*\*And I have asked YOU twice to answer my question! And I asked first! Unless you are willing to allow purely elective abortions before a specific age, you will get no cite from me! \*\* Huh? You won’t back up a claim about a medical/biological fact unless I **agree** to a philosophical viewpoint? Is that really what you’re saying? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/33 "2003-05-07T19:32:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emacknight \* > **Why does a woman need to say at 8.5 months “I refuse to give birth kill this thing inside of me NOW,” what was she doing for the past 8.5 months?** Need? Medical necessity. Want? Changed her mind. > [@](#): > > **Under what cercumstances should this fetus not be born (either naturally or by C-section)?** If it’s not at term or mom doesn’t want to undergo C-section. > [@](#): > > **Would you not agree that if the fetus could survive outside of the mother, it should be allowed to?** Only if mom agrees to whatever procedure is required to get it out. > [@](#): > > **Zwaldd says 9months is the cut off. But this is too easy to argue against** Let’s hear your arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/34 "2003-05-07T19:35:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emacknight \* > \*\*This is true of ALL pregnancies though. I can’t think of anything more painful than giving birth. But is there not a point where a _little suffering_ should be expected for the life of the child? If you have the option of saving both the mother and the fetus should you take it? \*\* So what are you saying-that women will just have a late term abortion on a whim? No, sorry, it doesn’t happen that way. I would hardly think that late term abortions are done for birth control reasons. Most of the time, they’re EMERGENCIES. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/35 "2003-05-07T19:41:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*Huh? You won’t back up a claim about a medical/biological fact unless I **agree** to a philosophical viewpoint? > > Is that really what you’re saying? 😕 \*\* Quid pro quo Mr Beagledave If you tell me things, I’ll tell you things. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/36 "2003-05-07T19:48:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emacknight \* > \*\*This is true of ALL pregnancies though. I can’t think of anything more painful than giving birth. But is there not a point where a _little suffering_ should be expected for the life of the child? If you have the option of saving both the mother and the fetus should you take it? \*\* This is about the most inane thing I’ve ever heard. Pregnant women can and do get sick with all sorts of diseases during pregnancy. They can also be sick before getting pregnant, and some of these diseases are manageable if the woman is not pregnant. However, if the woman becomes pregnant, all bets are off, and choices need to be made. Diabetic women, for example, may have organ failure because organs already damaged by diabetes can’t handle the strain of working for two. Women with cancer may have to choose between pregnancy and treatment; they can’t have it both ways, and not every cancer is kind enough to wait until she gives birth. I could go on, but I’m not going to. Robin ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/37 "2003-05-07T19:50:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zwaldd \* > \*\*Need? Medical necessity. Want? Changed her mind. > > If it’s not at term or mom doesn’t want to undergo C-section. > > Only if mom agrees to whatever procedure is required to get it out. > > Let’s hear your arguments. \*\* Simple, why not wait a day. One day isn’t that bad, give birth, this whole mess will be behind you. Or, if you can’t wait, instead of an abortion, let’s just induce labour. Why is abortion really an option. And again, I hate this “medical emergency” idea. What medical emergency would prevent the fetus from coming out alive? Why is death the only option? If its going to come out, why not give it a chance? ---
**Author:** ![MSU\_1978](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@MSU\_1978](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MSU_1978)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/38 "2003-05-07T19:57:10Z")
I could go for that compromise- I’d say in the first three months, abortion should be legal. After that point, too late. I’d take it a step further, if you’re aborting as a means of birth control, then with your abortion one of your tubes gets tied. Do it a second time, then the other gets tied. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/39 "2003-05-07T19:59:00Z")
> [@](#): > > And again, I hate this “medical emergency” idea. What medical emergency would prevent the fetus from coming out alive? Why is death the only option? If its going to come out, why not give it a chance? I can think of a LOT of medical emergencies. So nice to see you basically accusing women of “faking it”, basically, so that they can get an abortion. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677/40 "2003-05-07T20:09:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emacknight \* > **Simple, why not wait a day.** Decided the world sucks and don’t want to bring a kid into it. > [@](#): > > **Why is abortion really an option.** We have the technology. > [@](#): > > **What medical emergency would prevent the fetus from coming out alive?** Don’t know. > [@](#): > > **Why is death the only option?** That’s what an abortion does. Interesting questions, but when are you going to offer an argument about making abortion illegal? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-compromise-on-abortion/173677.md?page=3)