A Compromise on Abortion

I did not make the statement that all pro life folks think… I was targeting population of Anti-Choice people that do think outlawing abortion solves the problem.

emacknight answered your question more eloquently than I could:

I would add these laws protect our unalienable rights as opposed to violating them.

And by the way, be honest. You are Anti-Choice as much as you are pro life. I am Pro-Life and Anti-abortion. Short of outlawing abortions, I think society should do everything to eliminate the need or desire for abortion. It would make me extremely happy to see all abortions end, short of violating the rights of women.

Be honest, you are not pro choice in all of your philosophies (Will you fight for my choice to not pay income taxes?) , you’re only applying the term to one particular issue…the term “pro choice” is as sloppy as the term “pro life” is. Reasonable people know that “pro choice” means “pro ‘right to an abortion’ choice” and that “pro life” means “pro ‘right to life’ of an unborn human”. The terms are short cuts to describe a philosophical viewpoint.

Snarky people wishing to be cute, use terms like “anti choice” (or “pro abortion/pro baby killer”). They tend to reflect more about themselves than those that they describe.

Ahhh. So you of course have cites from pro life folks …especially in this thread, since that’s who is debating…claiming that over turning Roe v Wade (or outlawing abortion…or other legislation) will once and for all “solve the problem”?

Do you believe that there is not one Anti-Choice person out there that does not believe that outlawing abortion will help “solve the problem”.

Oh I don’t know…kinda hard to prove a negative, eh? Since you’re debating in GD, I would think we would be addressing the points made by other folks in GD, and I haven’t seen any pro lifer in GD say that outlawing abortions will “solve the problem” Are we really addressing our arguments in here to the extreme fringe of our respective philosophies? Is there a point in doing so?

Let me get this straight…you haven’t met such a person… (or at least bother to name them here) You haven’t heard a prominent pro life person express this point on the news (I’d like a cite, otherwise), you haven’t seen anybody in GD make that claim…but you thought you’d get in a good argument on the off chance that someone has that belief? Right…

I must be confused. I thought this thread was about abortion.

Reasonable people know that these are misleading shortcuts. They imply that those opposing are not pro life and maybe even pro death. Anti-Choice is not misleading. Anti-Choice is much more accurate. It is not honest to mislead. I’m only asking you to be accurate and honest.

Most “pro abortion” people are not necessarily 'for abortion" or 'for killing babies". It is snarky to label Pro-Choice people pro abortion, it is snarky to label Anti-Choice people pro life.

Right.

** addendum**

I was writing for the lurkers. Thats it. I was writing for the lurkers.

No, this thread is not about abortion. This is about compromise. It is about both sides of this debate working together to form a happy sort of medium. Its pro-lifers allowing early abortions (before 12 weeks) OR putting up less billboards and pro-choicers restricting some of the choice OR working to reduce the number of overall abortions.

I don’t care if they are right or wrong. There is nothing on either side of this debate that I dissagree with; but I am a freak and an exception to the rule. There is a debate right now that scares the hell out of me. I can only imagine a future where women are flooding into Canada seaking political assilum from a country wishing to exicute them. At some point compromise will be required.

Comfortably Numb: Just because you state your argument in loud, blunt, authoritarian terms with no proof doesn’t mean you’re right. :stuck_out_tongue:

Ronbo, are you seriously trying to criticize Bryan Ekers for insulting you? All of your posts contain shots at him. You seem to have no idea what his positions are on this issue. Reading the thread before you started spouting off might’ve been a good idea.

Sounds like you’re favor of deciding for[/] the embryo/fetus whether it lives or not. Not much choiceu] for her…we can play these semantic games all day long.

Or…here’s a thought, an astonishing one at that. We could refer to each side by the appelation they wish to be called by. We call you pro choice instad of pro abortion or baby killers, you call us pro life instead of anti choice. Lots of [o]pro choice folks have made the very same point to me (a point that I agree with). The extreme fringe of the pro life group wouldn’t budge and would still call you pro abortion or pro baby killing. I guess you’re more than welcome to identify yourself with the extreme fringe of your viewpoint. Like I said earlier, use of those terms says a lot more about the folks who use them then about the people they think that they are describing. Sensible pro choice (and pro life folks) see this and act accordingly.

The law does not permit you to place your body in my living room in the middle of the night if I have not permitted this. Does your general rule believe this law is another needless restriction of choice? And if not, do you concede that just because someone is restricted as to what he can do with his body, that fact ALONE is not enough to conclude the restriction is wrong?

**Right. That’s why I added the phrase “to the extent any right can be inviolable” which you apparently overlooked in your zeal to grab the dictionary.

But that does not mean that there is not a hierarchy of rights, that certain rights do not subjugate other undeniably real rights. And I would suggest that the right of an innocent to live is the mother of all rights. Without it, all other rights are illusions.

You feel that the right of a woman to decide whether or not to “host” a fetus is a critical right. Just as an example, say a given woman pulls into my driveway to ask for directions, and I shoot her between the eyes for intruding upon my property. It’s my property. I will not suffer any intrusion, and who are you to say that my rights must be subjugated to another person whom I have no desire to interact with?

Whatever other right you supposed she was entitled to, I have rendered it moot by not respecting her most basic right. She cannot exercise any right now. Her right to live must be the most fundamental right she possesses, or else all other rights are mirages.

And if she possesses the right, as an innocent, to avoid being killed in a profligate manner, why wouldn’t a fetus? Why wouldn’t the unborns’ right to live be as fundamental and inviolable (to the extent any right can be)?

In responding, please keep in mind that I am not saying that my anology is similar to an abortion in any regard other than the fact that rights are in conflict. Suppose, for argument’s sake, that in my analogy I consider my property rights to be sacred, that any intrusion is tantemount to assault as far as I am concerned.

And if you respond with something along the lines of, “But what you’re suggesting is illegal,” I will smile a wry smile and consider this particular exchange over, since an abortion debate that relies on “But what’s legal is what matters” is not a debate. We are not discussing what is legal, we are discussing what ought to be legal.

I also await your response to Dave. I agree wholeheartedly with Dave (what a shock!) that someone who cannot extend this simple courtesy says more about himself than about anything else. There are others on the board who also refuse, and their work speaks for itself.

I use “anti-abortion advocates” and “pro-abortion rights advocates.”

I think that is clear without defaming anyone, but if I’m wrong, I’d like to be told.

(Sorry for contributing to the hijack.)

Julie

Upon reflection, I don’t think you hold these beliefs. I do think you deliberately use dramatic, loaded language for effect. If the unborn cannot have these motives, then don’t use the particular language you do. It’s not that tough. If you continue to use it, then I can safely assume you’re a panderer. ::shrug:: No big deal either way.

The problem is that simply stating that for the sake of the analogy you consider x to be y doesn’t work. We already have y. Someone comes onto your property without your permission and begins harming you. That would be roughly analogous to abortion. That the harm is unintentional is not especially relevant, in my opinion. If the only way you can stop the someone who comes onto your property from harming you is to kill them, I’m okay with that.

Now, I recognize that we might define “harming you” differently. But I would guess that most people, ignoring any abortion debate, would say that if someone came onto your property and caused you extreme physical and emotional distress, whether on purpose or not, that you would be justified in getting them to stop. If getting them to stop required killing them (because no other option will make them stop), I think most people would say that is fine.

To me, then, your analogy bolsters the pro-abortion rights position.

To recap:

Someone comes on my property without my consent.

That someone causes me excruciating mental and physical anguish.

I cannot stop the mental and physical anguish caused by the person without killing them.

I then am justified in killing them.

Is this position “legal”? No idea. Don’t care. It seems reasonable and justifiable to me. You will likely disagree.

Julie

Julie, IMO, what you do is certainly no terrible crime, but it is an insistence on using a term that both camps do not prefer. If you believe pro-life folks are worth debating, aren’t they worth being called the name they are comfortable with? That’s why I have never had a problem using the term “pro-choice,” despite the fact that (like “pro-life”) it is open to interpretation and more than a little self-serving. Dave said it much better than I could, but I believe if we can’t even move beyond this issue of civility, there’s really no point in debating. And with some on this board, that is exactly the conclusion I have come to (not with you, though!).

You’re arguing a point I’m not advancing. Let me ask you another way. What gives you the right to kill the person? Heck, don’t even tell me. Because whatever that right is, if just before you exercised it I killed you because I perceived you were intruding upon one of my rights, I have rendered your right moot. Whatever foundation you proceed from must assume that the right for an innocent to live is paramount, it seems to me, or your discussion of “sovereign” rights is so much navel gazing.

The analogy is apt for the point I’m raising–i.e., simply stating that another is intruding upon your rights is not enough justification, by itself, to kill that person, not if that person is blameless regarding the intrusion.

I’m lazy when it comes to typing. I assumed people would grasp my point. I have always attempted to steer the discussion back to the thread. The believe that answer I gave earlier is as good as any other compromise given so far:

Other compromises extend expanded rights to certain people (fetuses) and contradicts someone elses unalienable rights (womens). I doubt that any one that cannot accept this compromise as a workable solution will accept any valid compromise.

If you will go back and read the threads yourself, you will find that I have only reflected back insults originally hurled at me. I have even taken responsibility for my overreactions.

When you reread the threads, you will see that certain people have gone out of their way to expose their meaness. The post I responded to did not even respond to or address the issues, its only point was to insult me. Hey, at least I tried to make a joke (okay, it was a very bad joke) about his wording. I will gladly stop trading insults with Bryan, I will even try to let the next perceived insult go by.

When people have thoughtfully addressed my points, I have given them credit and responded in kind.

Very few of us have a choice of when or how we die. I do not have the right to take your kidney for myself, just because I will die without it. Show me how committed you really are: offer your body to someone who needs it.

My major complaint is that pro life can be misleading. How about Anti-Women’s Choice? Just joking. I will accept pro life until I can find something more accurate, but I expect you to stand against the fringe that would still call you pro abortion or pro baby killing.

Self defense. Self protection. Self preservation.

To the extent that I can’t exercise it, sure. To the extent that I would have been moral exercising it and your action was perhaps not moral, no.

Couple of points:

I dislike the term “innocent” for an entity that has no volition. We wouldn’t refer to a rock as “innocent,” and it has the same amount of self-determination as a fetus. For something to be innocent or guilty it seems they have to have had the opportunity to act justly or unjustly.

That’s always bugged me.

But I disagree. If the intrusion is causing me extreme physical and mental anguish, I think I must be justified in forcing the entity to stop if I wish to do so. The intent of the entity is not particularly relevant. What’s relevant to me is what damage the entity is causing, for how long, and what means are available to stop it.

I feel the same way about property rights as I do about my body. If someone intrudes onto my property and begins causing me extreme physical and mental anguish, and the entity can’t be reasoned with or convinced to abandon my property, if, in fact, the entity has no ability to act of its own volition at all but by its very presence is causing me extreme physical and mental anguish, I would feel justified in destroying it.

Danger! Analogy alert! Just because the entity stabbing you with a hot poker is an escapee from the insane asylum doesn’t mean you are obligated to stand there and be stabbed. Is the escapee hurting you with the same kind of purpose a rational person would have? No. They are not responsible for their actions. But you are still justified in stopping them, even if that requires deadly force.

Julie