# A couple of questions about "Pearl Harbor" Doolittle Raid (the 2001 movie) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 10, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991 "2016-06-10T01:45:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/1 "2016-06-10T01:45:23Z")
A couple of questions about “Pearl Harbor” Doolittle Raid (the 2001 movie): 1#. Colonel Doolittle tells the men, \*“I’m going to teach you to take off in a B-25 in 467 feet. Because in 468 feet, you’re dead.” \*I take this to mean that in 467 feet, the B-25 would take off, sink a bit, but pull up just above the waves, but in 468 feet, the B-25 would take off, sink, and impact the ocean surface? 2# The USS Hornet carrier group doesn’t detect Japanese patrol boats until they’re **400 yards** away. What…?? How could a Japanese patrol boat get that close without being seen? Even some of the carrier escorts are further than 400 yards away. Furthermore, in the movie, the Japanese patrol boat didn’t broadcast the Hornet’s position until they were 400 yards away. Why did the Japanese wait so long? Shouldn’t they have broadcast when they were still miles away from the carrier, long ago? ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/2 "2016-06-10T01:54:17Z")
Without looking _anything_ up (the USS Hornet’s flight deck length etc.) I’ll just state the obvious: **Fact checking a Michael Bay movie is a bigger waste of time than critically reviewing it.** _Pearl Harbor_ is about as factually accurate as _Armageddon_ is scientifically… ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/3 "2016-06-10T03:35:07Z")
What **Hail Ants** said. BTW, the Hornet’s flight deck was 814 feet. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/4 "2016-06-10T03:46:43Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > 1#. Colonel Doolittle tells the men, \*“I’m going to teach you to take off in a B-25 in 467 feet. Because in 468 feet, you’re dead.” \*I take this to mean that in 467 feet, the B-25 would take off, sink a bit, but pull up just above the waves, but in 468 feet, the B-25 would take off, sink, and impact the ocean surface? > **[Doolittle Raid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doolittle_Raid)** > > Second Sino-Japanese War > Taishō period > Shōwa period > [@](#): > > After re-spotting to allow for engine start and runups, Doolittle’s aircraft had 467 feet (142 m) of takeoff distance. Remember that _Hornet_ had a top speed of about 32 kt (37 mph), there’s ‘free speed’ the planes didn’t have to accelerate to. Also, guns and equipment were removed from the aircraft to make them lighter. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/5 "2016-06-10T04:03:30Z")
Just to mention, I recall reading at the time the film came out that none of the personnel on Oahu at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack participated in the Doolitle raid. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/6 "2016-06-10T04:20:00Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Without looking _anything_ up (the USS Hornet’s flight deck length etc.) I’ll just state the obvious: > > **Fact checking a Michael Bay movie is a bigger waste of time than critically reviewing it.** > > _Pearl Harbor_ is about as factually accurate as _Armageddon_ is scientifically… Yep. Find and watch [30 Seconds over Tokyo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Seconds_Over_Tokyo) instead. > [@](#): > > Verisimilitude was obtained by working closely with Captain Ted Lawson and other members of the raid. The use of [Hurlburt Field](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurlburt_Field) and [Peel Field](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Field) near [Mary Esther, Florida](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Esther,_Florida) and [Eglin Field](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eglin_Air_Force_Base) (present day [Eglin AFB](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eglin_AFB), the actual base where the Doolittle Raiders trained), along with using operational [USAAF](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Air_Forces) B-25C and -D bombers (which closely resembled the B-25B Mitchells used in 1942) made for an authentic, near-documentary feel. Auxiliary Field 4, [Peel Field](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Field), was used for the short-distance take off practice scenes.[[4]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Seconds_Over_Tokyo#cite_note-5) > [@](#): > > Critical acclaim followed _Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo_ with many reviewers considering it the finest aviation film of the period. The film is now considered a “classic aviation and war film.” The actual Raiders considered it a worthy tribute. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/7 "2016-06-10T04:33:15Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > _Pearl Harbor_ is about as factually accurate as _Armageddon_ is scientifically… The asteroid they used in _Armageddon_ was actually only the size of New Hampshire. They used forced perspective to make it look bigger. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/8 "2016-06-10T07:51:06Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > BTW, the Hornet’s flight deck was 814 feet. Yes, but it was largely filled with B-25s. The first planes in particular had a very short space in which to acquire the airspeed needed to stay out of the drink. **EDIT:** Ninja’d! ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/9 "2016-06-10T07:57:20Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > 2# The USS Hornet carrier group doesn’t detect Japanese patrol boats until they’re **400 yards** away. What…?? > > How could a Japanese patrol boat get that close without being seen? Even some of the carrier escorts are further than 400 yards away. > > Furthermore, in the movie, the Japanese patrol boat didn’t broadcast the Hornet’s position until they were 400 yards away. Why did the Japanese wait so long? Shouldn’t they have broadcast when they were still miles away from the carrier, long ago? IIRC, they were fishing boats, and the weather in the North Pacific was not good. They would have been low on the horizon and difficult to spot. They probably didn’t radio a warning sooner because they weren’t expecting enemy vessels that close to Japan in April 1942. They must have been surprised when the Americans opened fire on them. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/10 "2016-06-10T11:08:09Z")
The thing I notice on the movie was this. No one flier would have been in the Battle of Britain in fighter aircraft, then at Pearl Harbor on Dec 7 in another different fighter aircraft, and then a few months later be in a bomber flying off an aircraft carrier. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/11 "2016-06-10T12:09:51Z")
For dramatic purposes, I guess I wouldn’t mind _one_ entirely fictional pilot being at Pearl Harbor and on the Raid, but the movie certainly didn’t need _two_, with a love triangle thrown in for extra padding. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/12 "2016-06-10T13:12:38Z")
A friend of mine was a B-25 instructor pilot at Hurlbert Field when “30 Seconds Over Tokyo” was filmed. He and 2 other instructor pilots were tagged to do all the flying for the film. He’s actually visible in the film for about 13 seconds. He said Spencer Tracey never was at Hurlbert, but Van Johnson kept folks awake all night talking on the phone to his wife who was back in LA. I guess they all stayed in barracks during that part of the filming. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/13 "2016-06-10T14:08:11Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Just to mention, I recall reading at the time the film came out that none of the personnel on Oahu at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack participated in the Doolitle raid. Of course not. Why would you take a fighter pilot and make him into a bomber pilot for such an important mission? There were already plenty of experienced bomber pilots. Affleck’s character was particularly unbelievable. Most of the Eagle Squadron members had no prior military experience. No one was allowed out of the US Army and then let back in before Pearl Harbor. The 3 Eagle Squadrons were transferred to the Army Air Corps in September 1942. > [@terentii](#): > > IIRC, they were fishing boats, and the weather in the North Pacific was not good. They would have been low on the horizon and difficult to spot. > > They probably didn’t radio a warning sooner because they weren’t expecting enemy vessels that close to Japan in April 1942. They must have been surprised when the Americans opened fire on them. According to wiki (with cite to a reference I’m not familiar with) it was a Japaneses picket ship which did radio a warning. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/14 "2016-06-10T17:30:48Z")
> [@Battle\_Pope](#): > > Find and watch [30 Seconds over Tokyo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Seconds_Over_Tokyo) instead. Also recommend you see \*\*\*Destination: Tokyo \*\*\*with Cary Grant and _ **The Purple Heart** _ with Dana Andrews as a sort of prequel/sequel experience. Wartime propaganda, yes, but both are still great movies! ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/15 "2016-06-10T20:46:01Z")
Isn’t this the movie where Ben Affleck takes a train from NY to England? ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/16 "2016-06-10T20:49:13Z")
Oh, Screw All That…! …you had me at Kate Beckinsale… ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/17 "2016-06-11T01:21:18Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Isn’t this the movie where Ben Affleck takes a train from NY to England? It’s 1941 he can’t take a jet. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/18 "2016-06-11T01:36:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The asteroid they used in _Armageddon_ was actually only the size of New Hampshire. They used forced perspective to make it look bigger. My take on “It’s the size of Texas” was paraphrased, “Big enough. It’s big enough. Let’s stop talking about it.” ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/19 "2016-06-11T01:43:45Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Isn’t this the movie where Ben Affleck takes a train from NY to England? He might have taken it to the POE (NY Harbor, Halifax). Or, he could have gone to Canada, joined the RCAF, and flown to England. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991/20 "2019-04-10T02:12:01Z")
I know the Doolittle Raid has been discussed in a few different threads, but this seems as good a place as any to mention this. Richard Cole, the last survivor of the Raid, [died today](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/09/obituaries/richard-cole-dead.html) at 103. He was copilot of the lead plane, sitting alongside Doolittle. He lived long enough to see the discovery of the wreck of the USS _Hornet_. She was sunk in 1942 and discovered just a couple months ago. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-questions-about-pearl-harbor-doolittle-raid-the-2001-movie/756991.md?page=2)