# A couple of Spanish grammar questions. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 27, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-spanish-grammar-questions/261851 "2004-08-27T21:44:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-spanish-grammar-questions/261851/1 "2004-08-27T21:44:19Z")
Living in SoCal as I do I naturally am fairly inundated by Spanish in the form of signs, ads on buses, and other sources. I am aware that Sp. verbs follow the pattern of most Romance languages, with _er_, _ir_, and _ar_ endings in the infinitive, _-s_ in the 2nd person singular, and _-ido_, _-ado_, or _-edo_ in the past participle. (Actually I’m not sure about _-edo_, did it get absorbed by one of the other two?) But what is the _-en_ congugation on a verb? I stayed at a hotel once (actually in Spain, as it happened), and the “do not disturb” sign said _No molesten_. I’ve also seen it on a couple of signs on the fences of elementary schools (_Visitenos_ (meaning “Visit us”, I think))? In _No molesten_, the _-en_ looks like a gerundive, as in “No disturbing”, but in _Visitenos_ it looks like an imperative. So what is the _Droga Recta_? (a poor translation courtesy of altavista). ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-spanish-grammar-questions/261851/2 "2004-08-27T21:54:56Z")
IIRC, that’s the conjugation for ustedes (you, plural) in the command for. So, _no molesten_ would be “y’all don’t disturb”. Usually “iendo” in Spanish is the gerund form. ---
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-spanish-grammar-questions/261851/3 "2004-08-27T21:55:25Z")
In _no molesten_, it is the second person plural imperative. Goodness, that sounds erudite! In Spanish you can often get away without using the subject pronoun, since the verb conjugation tells you the subject. So it is _ustedes no mo_lesten, roughly translated “ya’ll don’t bother us.” Visitenos is actually a contraction of \*Usted **visite nos** otros \* or (you, singular) visit us. It is also in the imperative (command). ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-spanish-grammar-questions/261851/4 "2004-08-27T21:57:56Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > in the command for. command for **m**. (AKA, imperitive) ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-spanish-grammar-questions/261851/5 "2004-08-27T21:58:54Z")
Thanks for the responses so far. Are there any historical linguists out there who can tell me the evolution of that form? What was it in Latin, and what is it in other Romance languages? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-spanish-grammar-questions/261851/6 "2004-08-27T22:24:56Z")
> [@Harriet the Spry](#): > > In _no molesten_, it is the second person plural imperative. > > Goodness, that sounds erudite! > > In Spanish you can often get away without using the subject pronoun, since the verb conjugation tells you the subject. So it is _ustedes no mo_lesten, roughly translated “ya’ll don’t bother us.” > > Visitenos is actually a contraction of \*Usted **visite nos** otros \* or (you, singular) visit us. It is also in the imperative (command). I figure that _abuelisma_ is the appropriate term for the subject of Spanish grammar! 😉 Very minor nitpick in your otherwise-excellent comment above. Spanish does of course have a second person plural imperative, but it would be something like molestate (accent on the -ta- and the final syllable pronounced -tay). What you gave was the “Usted”-form **third** person imperative, which is for all practical purposes the indicative used mandatively: “[All you who read this (understood)] are not to molest [the inhabitants of this room].” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-spanish-grammar-questions/261851/7 "2004-08-27T22:40:02Z")
With regard to the infinitive/past participle question, by the way, one must reference Latin, the origin of most of Spanish grammar. There were four conjugations of Latin verbs: the infinitive of first conjugation ended in -are, of second in -ere, with the first E a long, stressed vowel, of third in -ere with the first E a short vowel, and of fourth in -ire. These gave rise to the three Spanish infinitive endings -ar, -er, and -ir. The four conjugations had past participles ending in -atus, -etus, -itus, and -itus respectively. First conjugation past participles became in Spanish -ado, and third and fourth -ido, as might be expected. Some second conjugation verbs retained the -edo form, while others, under the influence of the large group of third and fourth conjugation verbs already doing it, shifted to -ido. So -edo is almost an irregular ending, because very few verbs preserved it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-spanish-grammar-questions/261851/8 "2004-08-27T23:10:37Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I figure that _abuelisma_ is the appropriate term for the subject of Spanish grammar! 😉 > > Very minor nitpick in your otherwise-excellent comment above. Spanish does of course have a second person plural imperative, but it would be something like molestate (accent on the -ta- and the final syllable pronounced -tay). What you gave was the “Usted”-form **third** person imperative, which is for all practical purposes the indicative used mandatively: “[All you who read this (understood)] are not to molest [the inhabitants of this room].” To nitpick even further, the second person familiar plural (vosotros) affirmative imperative would be _Molestad!_. In the negative, it would be _No Molestéis!_ In the case of _No Molesten,_, as you say it is a third person form (Ustedes), but it is being used as the formal form of the second person plural imperative. ---
**Author:** ![Asteroide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@Asteroide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asteroide)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-spanish-grammar-questions/261851/9 "2004-08-27T23:21:11Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Very minor nitpick in your otherwise-excellent comment above. Spanish does of course have a second person plural imperative, but it would be something like molestate Seconding the minor nitpick of the minor nitpick - _molestate_ is Italian 2nd person plural. 3rd pers. plural in French and Italian : _molest **ano** _ and _dérang **ent** _ respectively, though the imperatives in French and Italian are less marked than in Spanish, and French uses 2nd pers. plural _vous_ not 3rd for formal address. As for Latin, I’ll bow to **Polycarp’s** superior knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Asteroide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@Asteroide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asteroide)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-of-spanish-grammar-questions/261851/10 "2004-08-27T23:23:37Z")
> [@Asteroide](#): > > 3rd pers. plural in French and Italian : _molest **ano** _ and _dérang **ent** _ respectively oops - that was of course Italian = _molest **ano** _ and French = _dérang **ent** _