# A couple questions about Rome **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 22, 2015, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339 "2015-02-22T13:03:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/21 "2015-02-23T10:51:00Z")
[QUOTE=Schnitte] I agree the same reasons could be used to argue that ancient Egyptians shouldn’t be called “Egyptians” because they have little in common with present-day Egypt (which is, culturally, an Arab country and thus very different from ancient Egypt). But in the case of Egypt, that terminology simply got stuck and is accepted by general convention, which isn’t true for Rome/Italy. [/QUOTE] :dubious: Why? Why does modern Egypt have “little in common” with Ancient Egypt? If thats the case than hardly any modern entity has anything to do with it predecessor. Rome is Christian, not pagan, Greece is Orthodox and hell, the modern UK has nothing to do with King George III’s realm, losing an Empire plus most of Ireland. Why does being “culturally Arab” have anything to do with it? (whatever the hell that means, since Egypt is distinct culturally from rest of N Africa, which is very distinct from the Levant, which is distinct from Iraq, which is distinct from the Peninsula, which is very very different from the Gulf, despite all being nominally “Arab”). Look forward to hearing your reasons. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/22 "2015-02-23T12:40:02Z")
_Which_ Italians are the Romans supposed to be like? The Sicilians, with their strong Greek and other influences? The German-speaking Tyroleans? The Frenchified Savoyards and Aostans ? The “I’m-Venetian-What-Is-This-Italy-You-Speak-Of?” Venetians? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/23 "2015-02-23T13:32:45Z")
^ Not to mention the massive immigration to Rome itself during the late republic and Empire times. From places like Syria, the Balkans, Germania…basically, all lands between the Irish sea and the Euphrates…well Indus, since they had a roaring slave trade with Persia. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/24 "2015-02-23T16:18:29Z")
Modern Italians have as much in common with ancient Romans as modern Mexicans have in common with the Aztecs. Romans in Italy were completely replaced by invaders who killed most of them and bred with the rest. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/25 "2015-02-23T20:28:53Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Romans in Italy were completely replaced by invaders who killed most of them and bred with the rest. [No](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Italy#Migration_High_Medieval_Y-DNA), that’s [not true](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html?_r=0). ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/26 "2015-02-23T20:37:26Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Why? Why does modern Egypt have “little in common” with Ancient Egypt? Language, writing system, ethnic background of the vast majority of the population, religion, social structure and government all differ hugely between ancient and modern day Egypt. Not to mention, of course, economy and technology, but I admit this is not peculiar to the Egyptian case but would apply to pretty much any other country after that time. I’d rather be interested in your list of common traits; this list would surely be more difficult to make up than a list of differences. > [@](#): > > If thats the case than hardly any modern entity has anything to do with it predecessor. Rome is Christian, not pagan, Greece is Orthodox and hell, the modern UK has nothing to do with King George III’s realm, losing an Empire plus most of Ireland. In the case of Rome and Greece, at least the writing system is still the same, and there is in fact a linguistic relationship between ancient Latin and modern Italian, or ancient and modern Greek, respectively, whereas ancient Egyptian has nothing to do whatsoever with modern Arabic or the Egyptian dialect thereof. In the case of Britain under George III, there are way more similarities. The language is essentially the same, the constitutional system is largely similar (in spite, of course, the evelotuion the British constitution has undergone since; but the basic institutions of the monarchy, Parliament, the Prime Ministership etc. were there). On top of that, Britain under George III had already started industrialisation. > [@](#): > > Why does being “culturally Arab” have anything to do with it? Because that’s what the OP asked about. > [@](#): > > Look forward to hearing your reasons. I provided mine. Now I’d be looking forward to hearing your list of common traits between ancient Romans and modern Italians. And please feel free to go beyond the mere fact that they happened to inhabit the same geographic area. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/27 "2015-02-24T04:53:50Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > It would be truer to say that Italians identified as Romans in Imperial times, but in the 1st century BC there was an attempt by the Italian allies of Rome to shake off the Roman yoke and establish a separate confederation to be known as Italia. The Romans certainly spent a lot of their early history subjugating their neighbours, but the Social War of the 1st century was not about “shaking off the Roman yoke”. It was rather the opposite. The war was fought over the rights of the Italian allies to Roman citizenship, which the Romans proper jealously hogged for themselves, and the benefits that came with it. Well, and also the rights to a fair share of the spoils from the Empire’s wars. The Italian confederation was basically the allies telling Rome “well, let’s see how well you get on if we take our ball and go home”. The Romans more or less lost the Social War, or at least quickly realized that they couldn’t win it (it’s hard to win a war against the same soldiers who normally make up the bulk of your army), and had to grant concessions and Roman citizenship to the allies. What the Italians wanted, and were granted, was to be Romans, and the whole idea of “independent Italy” was happily forgotten when that was achieved (except by maybe the Samnites, who were nursing some grudges from a couple of centuries back). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/28 "2015-02-24T12:07:06Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > ethnic background of the vast majority of the population […] differ hugely between ancient and modern day Egypt Cite? That’s [not](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_history_of_Egypt#DNA_studies_on_modern_Egyptians) what I’ve [read](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeogenetics_of_the_Near_East#Egypt). ---
**Author:** ![1046190](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/f4b2a3/32.png) [@1046190](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1046190)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/29 "2015-04-08T23:37:11Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The Romans themselves for instance. They fought wars over this issue. Let the Roman offspring be powerful, by Italian valor, I am pious Aeneas, who carries my Penates, snatched from the enemy, in my fleet with me, known by my fame above the ether. I seek my fatherland, Italy, and a race from highest Jove - Virgil ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/30 "2015-04-09T14:56:34Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > I meant culturally moreso than physically. Ancient Chinese and Greek culture, while of course different in many ways from today’s Greek and Chinese people are still recognizably “Greek” and “Chinese”. Would the Romans be recognizably Italian to us in the same way? Italy, France, and Spain are generally considered “Romance” cultures due to their ties to the historic Roman Empire. The languages, for instance, show strong connections to Latin. Roman Catholicism, which because the state religion of the empire in the 300’s, continues to be a dominant influence, perhaps one of the most visible continuing cultural connections. Many legal traditions as well, trace back to the empire. Similarly, arts and architecture, and even technology build upon Roman traditions. Rome today, for instance, continues to use at least one sewer line dating from antiquity! ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/31 "2015-04-09T15:06:38Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > Because “Italy” in the sense in which this word is used today denotes a nation state with a distinct culture and language; it’s more than just a geographic term denoting the peninsula which extends southward from the Alps. Neither the disctint Italian culture, nor the Italian language, nor the concept of an Italian nation existed in antiquity… This. Nowadays, there is no meaningful concept of a “Kodiak Island” nation. There are Kodiak Islanders, but they do not have a significant ethnic identity. There is no separate Kodiak Islander language (most people speak English, a few Spanish, and some Native languages), and people descended from people who once lived on Kodiak Island but moved to California in 1920 aren’t known as Kodiak-Californians. There is also no distinct Kodiak Islander citizenship that can be applied for, renounced, or revoked. Could a Kodiak Islander identity develop one day? Sure, if the people there developed their own distinct identity that rose to the level of defining a nation. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/32 "2015-04-09T15:12:39Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > I can’t say much about China, but I wouldn’t say that modern-day Greeks are culturally recognizably Greek in a sense that they share much culturally with ancient Greeks. Sure, it’s part of the national identity of present-day Greece to invoke the heritage of ancient Greece and take pride in it, but when it comes to things that can be felt in practice, there aren’t many similarities. For one thing, religion is obviously totally different - Orthodox Christianity for modern-day Greeks, polytheism in classical antiquity. Linguistically, even though modern Greek draws a lot from ancient Greek and uses the same alphabet, the languages are not mutually intelligible. In terms of law and social order, today’s Greece has (luckily) very little in common with ancient Greece and is rather based on political and legal concepts developed much later in other parts of Europe and were later adopted by Greece (a country which, coincidentally, was under Ottoman, i.e. Muslim, rule for a long time and didn’t gain its independence from the Ottoman Empire until the 19th century). If you had a chance to talk to a person from ancient Greece in person, I doubt that his or her cultural identity and mentality would appear very similar to a present-day Greek person. Ancient Greek philosophy had a substantial influence on Orthodox Christianity (and Western Christianity, but we must limit the scope of our discussion). While polytheism may have been abandoned, many of the themes developed in the mythology continue to percolate throughout the culture. Even with the languages, the differences between ancient and modern are comparable to that of Latin to Italian; clear line of organic evolution between the two, if not mutually intelligible. While the modern Greek state may be a recent phenomenon, Greek culture remained distinct from that of the Muslim majority. Greeks were in fact widespread throughout the Ottoman Empire, who were happy to claim the legacy of the fallen Eastern Roman (Greek speaking) Empire. Much of Constantinople itself remained Greek until the fall of the Ottomans, when many Greeks were sent packing back to Greece. The Ottomans were even happy to call the city “Constantinople” - it was the only Post Office of the Turk’s that gave it the “works”! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/33 "2015-04-09T17:01:14Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > …For one thing, religion is obviously totally different - Orthodox Christianity for modern-day Greeks, polytheism in classical antiquity… A change in dominant religion does not always produce a change of ethnicity. Examples: “English” people have journeyed from polytheistic Odinism to Catholicism to (mostly) Protestantism over the past 1500 years. Irish people have largely abandoned Druidism for Catholicism (with some later conversions to Protestantism). Are Irish people today “still Irish” even if they aren’t dancing around stone circles making offerings to various gods? The Irish have also become a predominantly English speaking people with Irish speakers in the minority. Do these English-speaking Irish people thereby lose their Irish identity? Is a Jewish person who can speak Russian but not Hebrew thereby considered to be ethnically Russian? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/34 "2015-04-09T19:33:25Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > First of all. Why aren’t Romans considered to be ancient Italians? Sure Rome expanded outside of Italy later on and early in its history just encompassed a small part of Italy, but during the peak of the republic and empire wasn’t Italy pretty much synonymous with “Rome proper”? Not really. Rome, even in its contemporary time, had a quasi-mystical sensibility to it. They didn’t even call it Rome, they called it “Urbs”, “The City”. There were other cities in the Empire of course, in the sense of large urban agglomerations, but there only ever was one City. As well, Rome certainly had a centralist position wrt. its administration : there were local curias and legal/judicial apparatuses everywhere of course, but ultimately they only operated in the legal/social spaces that Rome allowed them (and still sent tax money and/or wheat shipments back to Rome) > [@](#): > > Another thing: why exactly did Mark Antony have Cicero killed and why did he hate him so much? Putting his head on a pike is pretty extreme, but I guess that’s just how politics was done in those days? Oh yes. Politics in the late Republic were deadly to be sure. That all started before the time of Anthony ; when the rivalry between Marius and Sylla and the back-and-forth between them caused a whole mess of dudes to not just get killed but also their bodies mutilated and thrown in the Tiber river to prevent them having a “good” post-life. All just for having been supporters of the other guy. Politics was Serious Business back then, none of this character assassination and petty insinuations bullshit :). As for why specifically Anthony disliked Cicero : because Cicero had railed against him publicly a number of times. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/35 "2015-04-09T22:28:54Z")
Well, you have to cut Antony and Octavian some slack on that whole violent purge thing. Look at what happened to the last guy who tried being all magnanimous and pardoning all his opponents. Yup, stabbed to death on the Ides of March. So, I mean, whatcha gonna do? Although maybe cutting Cicero’s hands off and nailing them to the Rostra was in slightly poor taste. Also, that stabbing the tongue of his severed head with a hairpin, that Fulvia got up to. Just a teensy bit over the top, maybe? I guess that could just be me, though. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/36 "2015-04-09T22:54:32Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > There are some citations from the middle of the first millennium AD which refer to what we would call the city of Rome as “Old Rome”, and to what we would call Constantinople/Istanbul as “New Rome”. > > Didn’t the Ottoman Sultans style themselves “Sultan of Rome” for a while after 1453? Though I’m not sure if that ever really took off. _Rum_, yeah. Still the word for Anatolia in some languages, I think. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/37 "2015-04-09T22:57:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _Which_ Italians are the Romans supposed to be like? > The Sicilians, with their strong Greek and other influences? The German-speaking Tyroleans? The Frenchified Savoyards and Aostans ? The “I’m-Venetian-What-Is-This-Italy-You-Speak-Of?” Venetians? Presumably the ones in Roma and Romagna? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/38 "2015-04-10T10:45:15Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Presumably the ones in Roma and Romagna? In the same vein as my previous post (but a _teeny_ bit less seriously): The Roma and Romagna that were taken over by the Goths and then the Lombards? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Panic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/don_t_panic/32/398_2.png) [@Don\_t\_Panic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Panic)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/39 "2015-04-10T13:14:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > In the same vein as my previous post (but a _teeny_ bit less seriously): > > The Roma and Romagna that were taken over by the Goths and then the Lombards? Right. That is why they speak German in Rome today. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339/40 "2015-04-10T14:00:26Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Not really. Rome, even in its contemporary time, had a quasi-mystical sensibility to it. They didn’t even call it Rome, they called it “Urbs”, “The City”. There were other cities in the Empire of course, in the sense of large urban agglomerations, but there only ever was one City. Are you not thinking of Constantinople? The modern name of Istanbul comes from the Greek eis thn polin or ‘eis thn polin’. harden the p to a b and say it real fast. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-couple-questions-about-rome/713339.md?page=3)