# A crazy, mad science idea : proving if the death penalty is effective **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 1, 2017, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-crazy-mad-science-idea-proving-if-the-death-penalty-is-effective/783482 "2017-04-01T05:27:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-crazy-mad-science-idea-proving-if-the-death-penalty-is-effective/783482/41 "2017-04-01T23:16:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There’s nothing particularly just about incarcerating murderers. No? It’s more just to set them free? I’m not quite sure I understand what you mean. > [@](#): > > This is a valid point. It indicates the need for a higher level of proof required. There are cases where the evidence meets statistical certainty of guilt. No. There have been several studies (many linked in other threads) of how problematic many methods of evidence are. DNA tests produce false positives; fingerprints are confused; half of confessions to police are coerced but false. So neither physical evidence nor confessions are anywhere near good enough before the trial even starts. And that’s without the known problems in the US system specifically: the vast gulf between public defenders/ cheap lawyers and attorneys who have been elected by the general public; Juries who have not been trained to judge objectivly, but rather follow popular shows (the CSI expectation of proof which doesn’t exist in real world) and bring their own prejudices; and in some states judges with less than perfect understanding of the law (because in some places, judges can be appointed without having passed a test of law), and huge bias in the system of race, class and gender. Imagine that you are accused of murder and sentenced to execution. Would you accept that you are an statistic oddity of 1%? Or would you dmeand justice? Would you prefer prison with the hope of reversing or pardon? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-crazy-mad-science-idea-proving-if-the-death-penalty-is-effective/783482/42 "2017-04-01T23:18:12Z")
> [@Marlonius](#): > > Reason for getting off death row - conviction overturned (58%) and execution (24%). It seems the others die of natural causes. I would consider 58% overturned to be much much too high. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-crazy-mad-science-idea-proving-if-the-death-penalty-is-effective/783482/43 "2017-04-01T23:21:34Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > No. There have been several studies (many linked in other threads) of how problematic many methods of evidence are. That’s not a valid rebuttal to what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Marlonius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@Marlonius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marlonius)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-crazy-mad-science-idea-proving-if-the-death-penalty-is-effective/783482/44 "2017-04-01T23:37:07Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But if your goal as a society with the death penalty is to have prompt executions of the truly guilty, that means your system has a 24% success rate in achieving that goal. Over half have convictions overturned and the rest die before the state can get around to killing them. > > Is a 24% success rate (or, to put it the other way, a 76% failure rate) worth all the extra money? All fair points. It’s not my system mind you, it’s the U.S.A.'s system, which clearly has room for improvement. However, I highly doubt that all or even most of the 58% of the people who are released are not guilty of something, suspect they’re getting lawyered out on technicalities etc. It seems to me that whenever we discuss the death penalty as a concept, everyone reverts to the United States’ system for criticisms of that concept. Clearly it’s not cost effective there, nor is it always justly applied. We also know that it’s not a deterrent. I would never advocate for my country to model a capital punishment sentence after that model (if at all). If Canada were to (re)adopt one, I would want it to be cost effective and solemnly (and also swiftly) applied. I have no moral issues with executing a definitely guilty person, nor do I mind the notion of them dying behind bars. Unless the execution is brings some peace to the family of the (presumed) victims of the executed, I’d support whatever is cheaper. Switching gears, to best sum up Manson and his death sentence commuted to life - it bears mentioning explicitly (though I know NP knows, I’m not sure everyone else does) - Manson’s sentence was commuted to life not because of any particulars of his case, but because the state of California repealed the death sentence as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-crazy-mad-science-idea-proving-if-the-death-penalty-is-effective/783482/45 "2017-04-02T02:20:46Z")
> [@Marlonius](#): > > All fair points. > > It’s not my system mind you, it’s the U.S.A.'s system, which clearly has room for improvement. However, I highly doubt that all or even most of the 58% of the people who are released are not guilty of something, suspect they’re getting lawyered out on technicalities etc. > > It seems to me that whenever we discuss the death penalty as a concept, everyone reverts to the United States’ system for criticisms of that concept. Clearly it’s not cost effective there, nor is it always justly applied. We also know that it’s not a deterrent. > > I would never advocate for my country to model a capital punishment sentence after that model (if at all). If Canada were to (re)adopt one, I would want it to be cost effective and solemnly (and also swiftly) applied. You would want it to be, sure. But I don’t see a reason it would be fundamentally different. With due respect I think the opposite assumption would tend to be the common Canadian superiority/inferiority hang up about the US. To be sure people are guilty you have to spend a lot of time and effort. To only apply the ultimate penalty only to those who commit _truly_ heinous crimes, you get the problem of small scale which is what can make it some astronomical $ number per execution. Again the most overlooked point IMO is how small a % of unlawful killers are executed in the US. To start, most of the US population lives in states without the DP either officially or de facto, leaving only the pretty rare federal executions to say they ‘have’ the DP at all. And again even in the state with by far the largest absolute number of executions and at least one of the higher rates if not highest, TX, a very small % of people convicted of unlawful killing are sentenced to death. The bulk of the problem IMO is inherent to requiring extreme certainty and applying the punishment only to a small subset of unlawful killings. Some of it might be specific to the ‘less civilized’ US v Canada or other developed nations whose citizens are fond of thinking of themselves as so, but I doubt much of it. ---
**Author:** ![ticker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@ticker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ticker)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-crazy-mad-science-idea-proving-if-the-death-penalty-is-effective/783482/46 "2017-04-02T14:50:24Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Ok, but this experiment requires you be aware that you are subject to the death penalty or not. It is to find out if it actually serves a role as a deterrent. So what’s the problem? Just announce that murderers born on even days go to prison, those born on odd days go to the chair. Ok so it is grossly unfair but so is the current system which disproportionately executes the poor and/or African Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-crazy-mad-science-idea-proving-if-the-death-penalty-is-effective/783482/47 "2017-04-02T16:41:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We’ve had this discussion before and nobody has shown that a dead murder has killed again. So no matter what the recidivism rate is I don’t see it ever reaching zero. On the other hand, I would expect a certain number of cases where criminals figure its not going to get any worse. So there is no longer a downside to killing people, if it seems expedient or likly to increase chances of getting away. > [@Marlonius](#): > > It seems to me that whenever we discuss the death penalty as a concept, everyone reverts to the United States’ system for criticisms of that concept. Clearly it’s not cost effective there, nor is it always justly applied. We also know that it’s not a deterrent. Well, is there another system with a first world burden of proof and rights which employs the death penalty? I mean is there any other reasonable comparison subject out there? > [@Magiver](#): > > It indicates the need for a higher level of proof required. There are cases where the evidence meets statistical certainty of guilt. Even if the evidence does, it will still be administered by human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-crazy-mad-science-idea-proving-if-the-death-penalty-is-effective/783482/48 "2017-04-02T21:17:21Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Even if the evidence does, it will still be administered by human beings. And some convicted murderers will kill inmates, guards, and the public when released. Were you looking for absolutes in this discussion? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-crazy-mad-science-idea-proving-if-the-death-penalty-is-effective/783482.md?page=2)