# A credible atheist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 27, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697 "2013-07-27T21:22:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/81 "2013-07-30T23:39:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Whether Muslims worship a “Judeo-Christian God” is debatable. Mohammed apparently did the get the idea from Jews and Christians. (But did not really understand them – in fact, he appears to have been rather surprised, late in life, to learn that Christians did not consider themselves a kind of Jew.) Understandable. I’ve seen it argued that Jesus would have been similarly surprised. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/82 "2013-07-30T23:44:36Z")
I read in [_What Lincoln Believed_](http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/1400030730) about how Lincoln, in his youth, wrote a book demolishing Christianity. It was never published. A friend pointed out how that would doom Lincoln’s political ambitions, and he took it to heart and burned the manuscript. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/83 "2013-07-31T00:21:44Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So **huck** , your grandfather: > > –staunchly believed there was clearly no invisible omnipotent man in the sky who created everything > > –thought it was perfectly reasonable for other people to believe the opposite > > Really? How’s that work? Because there is no way to settle the question? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/84 "2013-07-31T01:45:31Z")
Depends on your definition of “settle”. I think it’s settled as well as is the question of whether astrology is valid, whether there are mermaids and sirens, etc. if you take the strict “can’t prove a negative” position, then all matter of nonsensical claims could have their truth value described as “unsettled”. ETA: And even with such a ridiculously strict standard, you are going to assert that it couldn’t be settled in the theist direction at least, if God started doing miracles all over the place like he supposedly used to? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/85 "2013-07-31T02:05:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Depends on your definition of “settle”. I think it’s settled as well as is the question of whether astrology is valid, whether there are mermaids and sirens, etc. if you take the strict “can’t prove a negative” position, then all matter of nonsensical claims could have their truth value described as “unsettled”. No. Those things all have more precise agreed definitions than God. They’re testable propositions at least in principle. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > ETA: And even with such a ridiculously strict standard, you are going to assert that it couldn’t be settled in the theist direction at least, if God started doing miracles all over the place like he supposedly used to? No. How do I know that’s actually him? The voice out of the burning bush might be God, or Satan, or something from an entirely different mythology, or an ET with indistinguishable-from-magic technology and a mischievous sense of humor, or those funny-tasting mushrooms I just ate. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/86 "2013-07-31T02:24:50Z")
Sure, and maybe the Earth really is six thousand years old, and God faked the evidence for its being much older, to test our faith. Or maybe we’re all in the Matrix. Or just I am, or I’m on the Truman Show… ETA: Almost overlooked something else: so you believe we can prove mermaids don’t exist? What if a mermaidist insisted they are just really good at hiding? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/87 "2013-07-31T02:51:29Z")
SlackerInc writes: \> Or maybe we’re all in the Matrix. Or just I am . . . Um, SlackerInc, there’s something we should tell you now, I guess. We’ve done a good job of hiding it from you so far, but now it’s time to be honest. You _are_ in the Matrix. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/88 "2013-07-31T02:56:12Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > ETA: Almost overlooked something else: so you believe we can prove mermaids don’t exist? What if a mermaidist insisted they are just really good at hiding? Then there still should be mermaids and proto-mermaids in the fossil record. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/89 "2013-07-31T03:40:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Then there still should be mermaids and proto-mermaids in the fossil record. God covered them up. Thanks for the honesty, Wendell. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/90 "2013-07-31T04:01:27Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > SlackerInc writes: > > \> Or maybe we’re all in the Matrix. Or just I am . . . > > Um, SlackerInc, there’s something we should tell you now, I guess. We’ve done a good job of hiding it from you so far, but now it’s time to be honest. You _are_ in the Matrix. [Not that one can’t adapt.](http://www.galactanet.com/comic/view.php?strip=257) ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Schmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Some\_Schmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Schmo)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/91 "2013-07-31T15:08:50Z")
I’m an atheist who struggled with the question, “How can a smart person believe in religion” for a long time. I think the answer is to remember that, like all thoughts, god is an idea. Everyone has ideas, some good, some bad. Being smart doesn’t make anyone immune to bad ideas. In reality, it’s not that I specifically think there’s no god; strictly speaking, I don’t know, and will never know unless some god makes a public appearance. It’s just that I’ve never seen one and nobody has ever described one I could believe in. Clearly, theists don’t have that problem. I’ve come to the conclusion that people generally don’t disagree due to differences in intelligence level; they disagree due to differences in what they value. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/92 "2013-07-31T18:31:04Z")
So, to repeat my question: columnist George Will is a publicly self-professed agnostic. Despite not believing in God, he holds most of the same positions as the Religious Right on most of the hot button issues. Suppose that agnostic Will were running for President against (since somebody won’t buy Jimmy Carter as a liberal Democrat, I’ll change my example) Mario Cuomo, who proclaims himself a devout Catholic. I would gladly vote for Will over my fellow Catholic Cuomo. Does that make you secularists happy? Aren’t you thrilled at how open-minded I am, at how I don’t impose religious litmus tests on candidates? Something tells me secularists would overwhelmingly vote for Cuomo! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/93 "2013-07-31T19:12:22Z")
> [@Some\_Schmo](#): > > I’ve come to the conclusion that people generally don’t disagree due to differences in intelligence level; they disagree due to differences in what they value. Have there been any studies on that? That is, on the correlation of intelligence, or other measurable personal psychological characteristics, with content and/or strength of religious belief? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/94 "2013-08-01T16:48:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Have there been any studies on that? That is, on the correlation of intelligence, or other measurable personal psychological characteristics, with content and/or strength of religious belief? Yes. [Religiosity and intelligence - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence#Studies_comparing_religious_belief_and_I.Q). ---
**Author:** ![kambria](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eb9ed0/32.png) [@kambria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambria)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/95 "2013-08-01T17:31:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > All the studies and polls that have been done over the years showing just how despised atheists are in America. And all the hatred expressed towards atheists in general; if you’ve never heard any religious people express hostility towards atheists then you haven’t been paying attention because it’s everywhere. And ruthless; it’s common for religious people to hate their own atheistic children, and abuse them if they can get away with it (like sending them off to some Third World “Jesus Camp” to be beaten and starved into “accepting Jesus”). I recall on 60 Minutes some years ago a bunch of parents being interviewed who said that they’d prefer that their children kill themselves rather than becoming an atheist. One of my early memories is reading the newspaper with some bishop talking about how it’s “better to kill for Kali” than it is to be even the nicest atheist, because at lest someone who kills for a “false goddess” is upholding faith. I find this view shocking, if not outright laughable. I am probably what you’d consider one of those “religious people,” yet I neither hold hostile views of atheists nor hear those views expressed by other Christians I know. In fact, the amount of vitriolic hatred I hear/see expressed _toward_ Christians far outweighs what I’ve heard from them. Assuming it’s true that the bishop (quoted above) said that, it’s hypocritical, un-Christian, hyperbolic crap, the likes of which (happily) I haven’t heard before on this side of the fence. Perhaps I’m just hanging out with the right crowd? :dubious: I find it hard to believe than anyone, either atheist or Christian, can’t just put aside that single difference without being snarky and/or judgmental about the other person’s entire intellect or worldview. I believe; my mom’s husband doesn’t. It doesn’t of necessity mean either of us is credible, stupid, backward, or even damned (from my perspective!)…just that we don’t see likewise on this one issue. As far as the original question goes, I not only think it’s possible that one could be elected but am surprised that this is even a question, given the marginal or nonexistent religious beliefs of many elected leaders. In fact, I think recent elections show distinct reluctance to elect the most overtly religious candidates. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/96 "2013-08-01T17:41:31Z")
> [@kambria](#): > > I find this view shocking, if not outright laughable. I am probably what you’d consider one of those “religious people,” yet I neither hold hostile views of atheists nor hear those views expressed by other Christians I know. In fact, the amount of vitriolic hatred I hear/see expressed _toward_ Christians far outweighs what I’ve heard from them. You sound like a white person denying that significant racism exists because you haven’t experienced it aimed at you. > [@kambria](#): > > Assuming it’s true that the bishop (quoted above) said that, it’s hypocritical, un-Christian, hyperbolic crap, the likes of which (happily) I haven’t heard before on this side of the fence. It’s hardly “un-Christian”, it’s the Christian norm. > [@kambria](#): > > I find it hard to believe than anyone, either atheist or Christian, can’t just put aside that single difference without being snarky and/or judgmental about the other person’s entire intellect or worldview. I suggest that you read history or the news then. > [@kambria](#): > > . It doesn’t of necessity mean either of us is credible, stupid, backward, or even damned (from my perspective!)…just that we don’t see likewise on this one issue. Given how blatantly false and outright silly religion is, of course it requires believers to be credulous. What other word _is_ there for an adult who is doing the equivalent of believing in Santa Claus? It’s not like the falsehood of religion is _hard_ to figure out; anyone intelligent enough to function as an independent adult is smart enough to see through religion. Since it isn’t stupidity, that leaves credulousness. ---
**Author:** ![kambria](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eb9ed0/32.png) [@kambria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambria)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/97 "2013-08-01T17:56:42Z")
Der Trihs: It doesn’t seem that what I was trying to say came across right. Let me try again… I’m not denying that hatred of atheists doesn’t exist. I’m saying that it’s been far from my experience–either in the places I’ve lived, online, or in the media. Anecdotal evidence isn’t the strongest means of proof, but I’m responding specifically to the (anecdotal) statement that this kind of hatred “is everywhere.” It _is_ un-Christian to spew hatred; the point of Christianity is love. As Ghandi said, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” It fails to live up to Christian standards, making it un-Christian. That the followers (not excluding this one) fall so short so often is pitiful, but such is the case with almost any great ideal. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Quote: > > Originally Posted by kambria > > I find it hard to believe than anyone, either atheist or Christian, can’t just put aside that single difference without being snarky and/or judgmental about the other person’s entire intellect or worldview. > > I suggest that you read history or the news then. I don’t mean that I’m denying it…just that it’s hard to comprehend why people can’t put that difference aside. I’ll leave aside the nastiness about credibility, since I don’t want to engage in personal attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/98 "2013-08-01T18:25:51Z")
> [@kambria](#): > > It _is_ un-Christian to spew hatred; the point of Christianity is love. No; the point of Christianity is to maximize the number of people in the world who call themselves Christian, and to destroy all rival belief systems. Christianity has nothing to do with love; if it is strongly associated with any emotion, it’s hate. “Christianity is love/is about love” is just a nice sounding propaganda line that has nothing to do with actual Christianity. And I’ll also say that I _personally_ find “Christianity = love” rather creepy, not endearing. > [@kambria](#): > > As Ghandi said, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Christ has about as much to do with Christianity as Mickey Mouse does with Disney; he’s a symbol, a logo. He’s not really relevant to their actual practices. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/99 "2013-08-01T18:29:52Z")
> [@kambria](#): > > It _is_ un-Christian to spew hatred; the point of Christianity is love. FYI: > [@Jesus](#): > > “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.” Matthew 10: 34-36 > > “Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.” Luke 12:51-53 > > “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he can not be my disciple.” Luke 14: 26 > > “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” John 3:18 > > “Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.” Matthew 18:8, 9 > > “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28 > > “But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.” Luke 12:5 > > “The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 13:41-42 ---
**Author:** ![kambria](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eb9ed0/32.png) [@kambria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambria)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697/100 "2013-08-01T18:39:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Matthew 22:36-40 > > New International Version (NIV) > > 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” > > 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” If you want to choose out of context verses, at least this one has the benefit of being given weight in Scripture itself. I’m not even sure how to begin responding to the claim that Christianity isn’t about Christ.:rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-credible-atheist/664697.md?page=6)