A credible atheist

Great Debates
101

Kambria, you must be new here (as am I).

I know it will make folks unhappy since I am new, but I’ll just say anyway that among certain posters it is an article of faith that religion is bad, Christianity is very bad, and Christians are bad and stupid. If you offer evidence that you or other Christians you know are not one or the other, you and/or your friends are not really Christian. I know this as the “no True Scotsman” way of arguing, but to the posters who follow the New Atheist precepts that’s not a problem.

Also, you will at some point in any thread get the Nyburg and a few other studies showing that religious people are less intelligent than atheists. It’s best to just understand that no matter what questions you raise about the meaning or validity of those numbers, those two or three IQ points mean that you are wrong and the atheist is right.

It is also an article of faith among these posters that all Christians despise atheists and discriminate against them.

Sorry–I’ll likely be banned for this–but I just want to say that it is not the majority of nonbelievers here who post this way, but it happens in virtually every thread that touches on religion, on or off-topic as may be.

102

The verses are hateful in context too. Feel free to look them up.

Sure, just like the hateful ones.

103

“All”?

104

I’m pretty familiar with them, thanks…but to respond:

In the first one, Mt 10:34 ff., Jesus isn’t saying this in the context of encouraging Christians to spread hatred. In fact, he tells the disciples in the same speech that they should endure whatever comes their way (hatred because of their Christianity). The Luke 12 reference is the same speech/different Gospel.

Luke 14:26 is similarly out of context. It says, “If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.” Hate here means something like “love less than they love me.” Far from being a passage about killing infidels and pushing others around, this passage is about sacrificing for God/Jesus. Verse 33 (same passage) says, “So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.”

The rest of the passages you cite don’t have anything to do with the actions of Christians themselves at all–they’re about God and hell specifically. I fail to see how any of these verses prove that Christians aren’t directed to act lovingly/kindly/charitably toward others. On the other hand, the passage I cited is a specific directive aimed at Jesus’ follower(s).

I’m not trying to convert anyone or by any means to say that Christians can’t or don’t make egregious, terrible mistakes. I am simply saying that to act spitefully is in contrast to the very tenets of the faith: hypocritical.

105

You should quote the verse, then tell us how it means something different then what it says.

Well isn’t that nice.

No for killing infidels you have to go back to Jesus’ father, in whom he is said to be incarnate:

Surely you can see how Jesus himself is not a god of love. At the very list you can see why other Christians would not want atheists in their community tempting their children such that Jesus would have cast them into hellfire.

That all depends on which parts of the Bible you want to follow. God himself was quite spiteful and hypocritical.

106

Christianity is about what actual living Christians do and believe; not about the alleged opinions of a semi-mythical guy who has been dead for 2000 years. And Christianity got to where it is by massacres, terror and tyranny; not “love”.

107

Could a Buddhist get elected president, I wonder? They don’t believe in God, but they believe in something.

108

And if the Bible is true, Jesus has plenty of massacres, terror, and tyranny in store for all us atheists. Not so much love.

109

Then there may be hope for an atheist in the white house.

Fox reported several months ago that Oprahs own network OWN is losing its ass, to the tune of $333 million. XM radio later updated that to 1/2 billion.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2012/05/07/losses-at-oprah-winfrey-own-reportedly-approach-330m/

110

You forgot to add:

Christians represent a disproportionate % of people in prison. Something like 84% (more than their general population), while atheists are less than 0.5%, (or about 1/15th of their % in the general population). Just going by memory, so figures may be off.

111

That is new and interesting.

Were they Christians before they were sent to prison?

I’d love to see this study if by chance you can recall the source.

ETA: found one

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

112

It makes perfect sense that nasty-ass people would be christians. After all, the underlying premise of the belief system is that Eve screwed the whole race over with that damn FotToKoG&E, corrupting her innocent boyfriend as well (damn those women, always causing trouble). If we were not naturally inclined toward badness and destined to fall short of the grace of god in our sinful ways, the entire jesus thing would have been holy superfluous.

But there he is, our wonderful saviour, who squirted out a bunch of wine-flavoured blood in order to earn us redemption. So, we will do unacceptable things, it says so right there in the bible (somewhere, I think), and jesus is right there to bleed for our forgiveness.

Hence, to get into heaven and sit beside jehovallah, you must accept the gift of god’s lad’s sacrifice, no other way is offered. And, if you are an asshole, or a thief, or a rapist, or a serial torture-murderer-cannibal, hey, NP, you were destined to do bad things anyway, ever since the eighth day of creation, but you can get your soul saved with a bit of abject supplication. Then, next week, you can go out and do it again, just as long as you get back into church afterward for the eternity-safety-snack.

Atheists, on the other hand, have no such easy-out. Things must be taken as they come. Anger and hatred must be reserved for the hateful and the despicable, on a case-by-case basis, not because they are the “wrong sort”. Good and bad are here and now (or maybe to be dealt with tomorrow), not a spiritual eternal future issue. Being evil is a question of pragmatism and others, there is no deity to cast judgement, and there is no salvation from regret.

113

True

True

False. Some Christians are bad, and some Christians are stupid. Mostly, the average Christian is simply ignorant, especially about Christianity and its history, and definitely about other religions.

I don’t know where you’re getting this from. A cite would be appreciated.

What are ‘New Atheist’ precepts?

False. Also, I don’t think IQ or intelligence has anything to do with it. Perhaps religious people are a little less knowledgeable overall, but that is only because of a propensity to eschew the scientific method and evidence-based data and to continue to rely on faith-based constructs even after they have been debunked and discredited.

False. However, you cannot deny that hatred and fear of atheists by a vocal segment of Christians, especially the American strain, is very real.

This is not Free Republic, so no, you won’t get banned for stating contrarian opinions here.

114

(bolding mine)

:slight nitpick:
If I may… Cite, please, of George Will stating that he “does not believe in God”?
I’ve always been taught that to be an agnostic, meant that one didn’t necessarily ‘not believe’ in God, Yahweh, Allah, Og, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc., etc., ad nauseum, just that one didn’t know. YMMV

115

I seriously doubt Christians will give atheists a fair shake in any election.

I don’t talk about being an atheist in public (IRL), because the reaction is always the same. And it’s tough to dodge questions about where I go to church. The answer is, I don’t go to any church. (Gasp and alarm, why not?) Because I am not a member of any religion. (Well I believe in God, right?) No. (Why not?)

There’s no answer to that question that will actually satisfy someone who finds it remarkable that someone could actually *not *believe in their God.

And of course, being treated differently afterward is always fun. Now the people who were talking and being friendly toward me now believe I am a sick evil monster, so, they disassociate and keep their distance. This has happened plenty of times. Basically, it’s okay if you believe in something else; be a jew, be a muslim, be a buddhist- anything at all… but believing in* nothing supernatural* at all, that’s beyond the pale. You see, if I were a Buddhist, there would be different questions. Curiosity. Excitement, even! Oh my, how interesting, a Buddhist. What is it that you folks believe in? Tell me more.

There is no such enthusiasm and curiosity if you say you’re a non-believer. Just awkward silence, followed by fewer conversations in the future.

You see, before I revealed that part of myself, I was a nice person, good enough to want to get to know, funny, charming, personable. Now, as non-believer, I am not worth getting to know anymore, so the conversation ends, and further questions about myself are not posed.

And I’m the atheist that people know in real, everyday life. You don’t see me urinating on crucifixes or whatever. You didn’t even know I was an atheist until years after you met me. So obviously I’m not so different from everyone else. But even knowing me, there is still distance afterward.

Now you factor in a politician that you’ve never met in person, and how can there be trust?

If I can work with you every day for years, make you laugh, and be interesting enough to get to know *until *I answer your question about my religion, and then you back away, how could you possibly trust a stranger? Getting to know me and finding out I’m a decent person didn’t stop you from distrusting me or disassociating yourself with me once you knew I was atheist.

You see, to me it is like the default position. If you never paint your house, it’s a house without paint. If you never teach a child religion, the child is an agnostic. But I can’t just respond “none for me, thanks” when someone wants to know what supernatural things I worship, because that alone causes discomfort and distrust.

I know it is not the same for everyone, there are tolerant religious people. But when half the folks with the same political opinion as you wouldn’t vote for you because you’re one of those bizarre non-believer types, then yeah, that tells you how highly most people think of atheists.

It’s small wonder any atheists think religion is a destructive influence- even in decent enough people, it causes people to treat others like they are diseased merely for being different. Whether the reaction is subtle or not, when you’re treated differently forever after, that tells me where I rank in the scheme of things, in the mind of many religious people.

Oh, atheist? Ewww get it away. Don’t marry my daughter, don’t run for Congress. I barely can tolerate you in my workplace, you pawn of Satan. :rolleyes:

116

Yes, spot on. The hopeful, optimistic liberal religious folk who pooh-pooh the idea that there is widespread antipathy toward atheists should try the following:

(1) Leave the West Coast or Northeastern liberal city you inhabit, if applicable.

(2) Get to know people in a new location (perhaps on a vacation), being a friendly, interesting person to be around.

(3) Gently “reveal” (in quotes because you are faking) your atheism.

(4) Report back.

As I keep saying, though, I don’t expect people to sincerely hold religious beliefs and think it’s okay to be an atheist. If the God of the Bible is real, he is not cool with atheism, not one bit. Maybe it’s better than worshipping Ba’al or someone like that, but not by much.

117

Not meaning to sound like that Australian on late night TV pushing ShamWow cleaning products…

“…but wait!..theres more!”…

According to a poll by ChristiaNet.com and Second Glance Ministries, half of all Christian men are addicted to pornography. While the statistics for men are nothing new, the poll found 20 percent of all Christian women to be addicts to pornography.

Additional findings showed 60 percent of the women respondents admitted to having significant struggles with lust, 40 percent admitted to being involved in sexual sin in the past year, and 20 percent of the church-going female participants struggled with looking at pornography on an ongoing basis.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20060810/23609.htm
OK now its your turn.

See if you can find a cite for the southern baptists conventions, where the hotels that are booked primarily by preachers, year after year, have record high in-your-room pay per view porn sales.

“praise god and pass the sock”

“our lady of blessed sock puppets, don’t fail me now”

118

What’s your support for this? There’s hardly any reference in the Bible to atheism or atheists. On the other hand, there’s a lot said against worshipping false gods or idols, against misusing the name of God, against disobeying or defying God. My own impression is that God is a lot cooler with atheists (at least some of them) than he is with people who claim to be Christians but don’t act like it. Jesus saved his most scathing condemnations for religious people.
[QUOTE=Jesus]
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

(Matthew 7:21)
[/QUOTE]

119

You don’t see a bit of, er, confirmation bias in your passionate embrace of the 84%-of-prison inmates-are-Christians statistic?

Without knowing whether this more than 10 year old stat is a blip versus other years, what the self-identified “nasty-ass” Christians were incarcerated for, when they became Christians, or how the denominational identifications were made, you figure it must be true that Christians are more likely to commit crimes because of the way you interpret Christian doctrine.

Of course, you are entitled to interpret Christian doctrine however you would like, and to reject it based on that interpretation, but your response is hardly more dispassionate and fact-based than any process that could lead ot acceptance of it, including the less thoughtful ones.

120

Sorry, a quick google failed to unearth this important nugget, though I found a few confessionals and references to 40% of pastors admitting to using/being addicted to online porn. Will that do? Seems to have a lot of potential for indignation and sweeping generalization purposes.