# A Culture of Safety in the police **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2020, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525 "2020-06-12T12:04:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/41 "2020-06-13T03:46:41Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > While I support the idea of cops toning things down, I am highly wary of this “-splaining” where cops, who are actually in the line of fire, are supposed to abide by rules of engagement typed up by people in their living rooms who have never been a cop for a day in their life. That would be like me, sitting in my comfortable living room here, lecturing American soldiers what they ought to do when they encounter a suspected IED in Afghanistan or a suspicious civilian wearing something bulky under their clothing approaches them. Funny you bring that up, because I (and every other soldier I know) had a far more strenuous and systematic ROE for those exact situations compared to “pull your firearm if there might possibly maybe potentially probably-not-but-weirder-shit-has happened be a criminal somewhere” I’ve seen as excuses by our law enforcement defenders in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/42 "2020-06-13T04:09:22Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > **Babale** , you know what I have done for a living for the past 4 decades. Can you tell us what you do, what your age is, where you live, what your education is? It would help your credibility in your arguments. No, see, in this country, cops work for us civilians, not the other way around. And frankly, they’re doing a shit job. It’s time cops remembered that the boss they’re ultimately accountable to is the American people, not the police department. You can threaten how bad things will be if we don’t cave to your demands and let you work the way you want to. Cops can talk about how no one will want to be a police officer. No, no one with THE CURRENT PREVALENT MINDSET will want to be a police officer, and if we’re looking at the police’s performance-- well, they keep fucking up, over and over again, and innocent lives are lost because of it. So maybe that’s a good thing. You can keep asking to see my credentials instead of making change. But with a little luck, and a lot of effort on the part of African American activists and their allies, society’s stance will shift with or without your support. Your boogeymen don’t scare me. At the end of the day, they’re all - yes, every single one - human beings. Some are sick. Some are irrational. Some are so sick or irrational that they pose a threat to society and need to be stopped – but they’re still human. Every single one was once a child. And many – most, I would argue – wouldn’t have turned out as irrational or sick if they lived in a better society than ours, one that did a better job of caring for its least fortunate members. The fact is, the police in its current incarnation is NOT moving us closer to that sort of society. It’s contributing to the problem. So it can either change, or GTFO of the way. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/43 "2020-06-13T04:20:02Z")
And yeah, there will still be sick people who truly cannot help but be a threat to society. And there will need to be people who society trains and even arms to deal with them. But I would better hope you’d agree that those people should be held to the highest fucking standard imaginable. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/44 "2020-06-13T04:22:36Z")
There aren’t sheep, wolves, and sheep dogs. There are people. Anyone who doesn’t see that shouldn’t be trusted to serve and protect. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/45 "2020-06-13T10:59:53Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > While I support the idea of cops toning things down, I am highly wary of this “-splaining” where cops, who are actually in the line of fire, are supposed to abide by rules of engagement typed up by people in their living rooms who have never been a cop for a day in their life. That would be like me, sitting in my comfortable living room here, lecturing American soldiers what they ought to do when they encounter a suspected IED in Afghanistan or a suspicious civilian wearing something bulky under their clothing approaches them. This mindset is the problem right here. I, the person sitting in my living room, am subject to the policing practices employed by the law enforcement that prowls around my house. I am the one who might get my door broken down and killed. My taxes fund their departments. I am their boss and I am entitled to call the tune they dance to. They have forgotten that, but we should never forget it. There was never any person born with the word “policeman” stamped on his forehead who was destined to rule others. They’re people who sign up for a job cracking skulls and quickly develop the idea that they rule without question. ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/46 "2020-06-13T11:05:27Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > Again, speaking as a pilot whose actions are overseen by FAA people who are definitely not in the airplane with me when I’m reacting to something in real time: Cry me a river. > > Oversight. Accountability. Professionalism. It’s demanded of me by the public, and rightly so. I have no problem demanding that from law enforcement. I think another factor is the sheer effort you expended to get your licenses (I assume an Airline Transport Pilot license and type-ratings). How many hours/years did you spend? How does that compare to police training? The averages I find in google searches are about 22 weeks. IANAPsych\_\_\_ but I know harder won privileges are more carefully guarded by those who have earned them. > [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > As an aviation professional, I endorse the OP. > > Back in the day, a first officer was supposed to sit down, shut up and not touch anything unless specifically allowed by the captain. Airline captains were treated with complete deference, to the point that many accidents and deaths occurred because nobody challenged their actions. My industry has successfully turned this around completely by implementing a safety management system, and use of “crew resource management”. What would happen today if a new FO (copilot) clearly announced he felt the Captain should break off an approach to the runway and the oldster refused, resulting in an accident (serious but survivable)? I suspect this is a career-ending move, but I’m not sure. I see no reason this would not work with police as well. When a junior (or any) officer warns that another is endangering a suspect and is ignored resulting in harm, this should result in independent investigation and possible removal from the force depending on findings. And like pilots, removal should result in nationwide banishment from the field. I wonder if some problems could be solved by granting law enforcement licensing at a national level. This could prevent dangerous policemen hiding by changing employment. It might not stop the first incident of brutality, but could ensure it was the last. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/47 "2020-06-13T11:36:31Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > **Babale** , you know what I have done for a living for the past 4 decades. Can you tell us what you do, what your age is, where you live, what your education is? It would help your credibility in your arguments. Given your 40 years of experience in law enforcement, what do you think the police can do to cut back on the approx. 40,000 Americans killed by LEOs over your time of service? Do you think that police training and methods are appropriate, and the vast majority of those 40,000 deaths (and uncountable other uses of violence) are either fully justified or the actions of rogue bad cops? If so, then YOU are what I marched against last Saturday. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/48 "2020-06-13T13:16:59Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > **Babale** , you don’t know what I know. And when I tell you what I know, whoa Nelly! You a’int gonna like it! Yeah yeah, we know cops deal with criminals. This “us cops are different and better than the rest of you, so don’t question us or try to exert authority over us” attitude is a huge problem. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/49 "2020-06-13T13:18:09Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > There aren’t sheep, wolves, and sheep dogs. There are people. Anyone who doesn’t see that shouldn’t be trusted to serve and protect. God, thank you for saying this. Anyone who believe they’re the sheepdog in that ridiculous, idiotic metaphor is really just a loose pit bull. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/50 "2020-06-13T13:22:28Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > God, thank you for saying this. Anyone who believe they’re the sheepdog in that ridiculous, idiotic metaphor is really just a loose pit bull. And that they can tell the wolves from the sheep by instinct, but without bias. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/51 "2020-06-13T13:48:30Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Given your 40 years of experience in law enforcement, what do you think the police can do to cut back on the approx. 40,000 Americans killed by LEOs over your time of service? . Can you narrow it down to unjustified uses of force? Then we can have an honest conversation. And if you join **Babale** basically saying that all police uses of force are unjustified then we have nothing to discuss. That simply isn ‘t a reasonable position to take. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/52 "2020-06-13T14:01:34Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > This ridiculous idea would mean about half of all police officers would be taken off the street every other month. > There are a lot of situations when it is a justified (and trained) reason for an officer to draw his weapon, even if they don’t fire it or even point it at anyone. How frequently do you think a police officer draws their weapon? I’ve heard tell from a previous boss (a former DA for the city of NYC) that most officers go their entire careers without drawing their gun, let alone using it. There are modern countries were your day to day beat cop doesn’t even carry a firearm. I don’t think an hour or so spent reviewing the circumstances why an officer drew their weapon is particularly unreasonable or places an undue burden on most police forces. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/53 "2020-06-13T14:56:59Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Can you narrow it down to unjustified uses of force? Then we can have an honest conversation. > > And if you join **Babale** basically saying that all police uses of force are unjustified then we have nothing to discuss. That simply isn ‘t a reasonable position to take. Man, where can I get whatever you’re smoking? It must be pretty great if that’s how you read my position. When the fuck did I say that all police use of force is unjustified? If use of force is going to protect someone from real, imminent physical harm, whether that someone is another civilian or a cop, then that’s justified. What police MUST NOT DO is escalate encounters that never needed to get violent to the point where someone dies. This is something our police is doing CONSTANTLY. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/54 "2020-06-13T15:00:02Z")
Yes, it IS relevant to ask whether the person offering solutions is a police officer. It’s relevant because we already know, from too many decades of experience, that the police are NOT capable of coming up with solutions on their own. We’ve let them try, and they’ve consistently failed. Clearly, one qualification for someone to be able to give a good suggestion is that they not be a police officer. And **Babale** has it right that a police officer absolutely should not have their own safety as the first priority. Anyone who has that as their first priority is in the wrong line of work. You want to know what you can do to guarantee that? Become an accountant instead of a police officer. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/55 "2020-06-13T15:35:27Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > How frequently do you think a police officer draws their weapon? I’ve heard tell from a previous boss (a former DA for the city of NYC) that most officers go their entire careers without drawing their gun, let alone using it. There are modern countries were your day to day beat cop doesn’t even carry a firearm. > > I don’t think an hour or so spent reviewing the circumstances why an officer drew their weapon is particularly unreasonable or places an undue burden on most police forces. I suppose that may have been the case at one point in history. But training and tactics have changed. And with those changes the number of officers injured or killed in the line of duty went down. It’s still true that the typical officer will never fire their weapon. Of the hundreds of cops I know only a handful ever have. 38+ years over 2 careers in a 1.5 metro area and I have never shot a human. Though I did dispatch a few deer and dogs that had been gravely injured and were suffering. And I shot a badger once that was thought (and turned out to be) rabid. As if those bastards aren’t vicious enough, right? What percentage of countries have unarmed police officers? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/56 "2020-06-13T16:46:16Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > It’s still true that the typical officer will never fire their weapon. Of the hundreds of cops I know only a handful ever have. 38+ years over 2 careers in a 1.5 metro area and I have never shot a human. Focusing on firearms discharges is a really good way to make police violence look rare, almost unheard-of. But don’t forget that firearms didn’t kill George Floyd and Eric Garner and Freddie Gray weren’t killed by firearms. During your time in the force, how many times did you see a suspect on the receiving end of non-violent force? Did it always result in an arrest, did the suspect ever turn out to be innocent, were they beaten while restrained? I won’t bother asking you if you did it. No matter what cop I talk to, I’m always talking to the innocent one, and the others are bad apples. But how many bad-apple situations did you see or hear or tolerate? Ever see anyone actually fired for it? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/57 "2020-06-13T16:54:40Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > During your time in the force, how many times did you see a suspect on the receiving end of non-violent force? What, exactly, is your definition of “non-violent force”? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/58 "2020-06-13T17:12:39Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I suppose that may have been the case at one point in history. But training and tactics have changed. And with those changes the number of officers injured or killed in the line of duty went down. But did the number of innocent civilians killed or injured go down too? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/59 "2020-06-13T18:35:33Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > During your time in the force, how many times did you see a suspect on the receiving end of non-violent force? Do you mean non-lethal force? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525/60 "2020-06-13T23:12:03Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > What, exactly, is your definition of “non-violent force”? Stumbled over a word, my bad, I’ll repeat the question more clearly. During your time as a cop, how many times did you see a suspect on the receiving end of non-firearm force? Did it always result in an arrest, did the suspect ever turn out to be innocent, did you see anyone beaten in restraints? The point being, it paints a very rosy picture when we ignore every single instance of police violence that did not involve discharging a firearm. Let’s not ignore all the George Floyds and Eric Garners and Freddie Grays, whose names we only know because they were filmed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-culture-of-safety-in-the-police/855525.md?page=4)