# A curios question to those who ask for proof **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2001, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729 "2001-10-21T20:03:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![rm1009](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@rm1009](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rm1009)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/1 "2001-10-21T20:03:22Z")
Hi I am new to posting here. However, I have been viewing this site from time to time for over a year now. There have been some very interesting discussions. Because I don’t come to this message board everyday I am not aware if this question has been asked before. My question is more or less for those who don’t believe in God’s existence. It is a two part question. 1. How would you want God to prove His exsitence to you? 2. If God was to prove Himself to you, would you want Him to or are you content with your current believe? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/2 "2001-10-21T20:16:59Z")
It has been discussed, but I never really “got” the answers. Especially the miracle thing. I’ll be interested in seeing a new discussion on it. Perhaps some of the new people will offer some insight. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/3 "2001-10-21T20:19:00Z")
By the way, your second question might contain a novel twist. And welcome to Straight Dope Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/4 "2001-10-21T20:40:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rm1009 \* > **1. How would you want God to prove His exsitence to you?** He could start by giving me the numbers to next week’s Power Ball ;). Actually an apirition would be nice. Kind of like what he did for Paul of Tarsus. \*\* > [@](#): > > 1. If God was to prove Himself to you, would you want Him to or are you content with your current believe? \*\* If there is a God, I would most definitely like Him to prove it to me. I would have been wrong for all of my life and I’d want to be correct in my beliefs. I’m an ingorance fighter after all. Haj ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/5 "2001-10-21T21:04:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rm1009 \* > **My question is more or less for those who don’t believe in God’s existence.** Before I answer this, please tell me what you mean by “God”. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/6 "2001-10-21T21:17:57Z")
[…applauding…] Finally, someone asks this question! Good for you, BlackKnight! ---
**Author:** ![Unbeliever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Unbeliever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unbeliever)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/7 "2001-10-21T21:45:15Z")
I am not what you would call a Christian and don’t count me to any religion but that does not mean that I don’t believe, I believe in something but I’m just not ready to give that sort of commitment. To your first question I would like to rephrase it if I may, I think the question is do you really want god to show you that he exists? In my case the answer is No. The reason is that if he would there would be no going back for me, would there? Pretty hard for me to argue with the almighty?? I could make a statement and he would just sit silent for a moment (that moment being my life) and then I would look pretty stupid. So I say please god if you are there leave me alone I can’t handle you just yet. ``` A very good friend of mine is religious, we rarely agree and that makes him all the more valuable to me, he has only frightened me once! I asked him if was not going to try to convert me, and he answered no. If you want to find god just go home and pray, but remember you have to really want to hear him to get an answer, and if you get one there is no way back old chap, are you ready for that? Then the bastard laughed knowing what seed he had put in my mind. Question two: I believe that religion is fine, as long as one does not try to shove his/her religion down my soar throat, I even believe that god exists, For those who believe in him, her it or what ever one believes in, and if your god or anyone’s happened to give me a miracle or two I wouldn’t mind, there are days I could use some, but most of the time I would prefer to be kept out of the cosmic struggles of gods and rather share my time with those I love instead of teaching them how we will all love one another with out the faithless in the eternal afterlife. ``` * * * Epilogue: One of the biggest reasons I don’t really like a lot of religious groups is the idea of Heaven, I have never liked places that are as selective as heaven, heaven in all its forms is like a club of celebrities, and the celebrities in this case being the faithful and those who don’t fit go to hell! ``` Well I like places that are open no matter your opinion colors or religion so if that means I will burn in ones hell or freeze in another’s its ok, I’ll face that when the time comes and unless I’m wrong I’ll probably meet some friends there. Until we meet on the great escalator……. ``` Excuse my lengthy speech. With a lot of respect The Unbeliever ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/8 "2001-10-21T22:37:59Z")
I would like God to end all wars, or give me a complete enough understanding as to what we have to in order to end them, along with an understanding as to how I can successfully convey those understandings to my people, in which case I’m willing to do the job myself. Continuing in the same vein: poverty (famine, deprivation, etc); violence (coercion, torture, the deliberate hurting of another, etc). Hold the flashy miracles. ---
**Author:** ![Kalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Kalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalt)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/9 "2001-10-21T23:45:15Z")
If he/she appeared in front of me and let me ask a few questions (“what am I thinking of?” type questions)… I would be more than content that god exists (assuming the questions were answered correctly). Then, I would ask one more question: Which religion is the right one? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2001, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/10 "2001-10-21T23:54:36Z")
If he is the “all-knowing” god I think you are refering to, he damn well should already _know_ what it would take to convince me. Of course, this wouldn’t mean I would necessarily believe “in” him. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Elvis_Rojo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/11 "2001-10-22T00:10:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AHunter3 \* > **I would like God to end all wars, or give me a complete enough understanding as to what we have to in order to end them…** How more complete do you need than “Love one another”? ---
**Author:** ![Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ebca7d/32.png) [@Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Violet)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/12 "2001-10-22T00:20:17Z")
It seems a premise or presupposition has been established that there is a “god.” Why must there be one at all? I hope someone out there understands what I’m trying to say. Also, why must there be a gender? The original Q used “Him, Himself, Him.” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/13 "2001-10-22T00:21:30Z")
**rm1009** wrote: > [@](#): > > My question is more or less for those who don’t believe in God’s existence. It is a two part question. > > 1. How would you want God to prove His exsitence to you? > 2. If God was to prove Himself to you, would you want Him to or are you content with your current believe? What you’re doing here is tantamount to attempting to shift the burden of proof. I respond in kind: 1. What criteria for the existence of God would you consider necessary to proving his existence, even if such evidence were not manifest? 2. Is it possible to form an argument for the non-existence of God that would change your mind? ---
**Author:** ![Monkey\_Chews](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@Monkey\_Chews](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monkey_Chews)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/14 "2001-10-22T00:29:56Z")
Howdy. “Weak atheist” here. **1. How would you want God to prove His existence to you?** I honestly don’t know. I guess in a way that left me with no doubt about His existence and His nature. Ideally, it would be an experience that could be verified by someone other than myself. But that’s not the way it seems to work. So I’d be willing to take a personal experience that fully satisfied those criteria. But it would have to be one hell of an experience. (So to speak.) Even more ideally, I’d want to be able to have a little Q&A session. I’d have a few questions. **2. If God was to prove Himself to you, would you want Him to or are you content with your current believe?** Well, that depends upon His nature. If I found God to be in the form of a pure and everlasting Love, then I can think of nothing more wonderful. If it’s the God of those people who held up “God hates fags” signs at Matthew Shepard’s funeral, then I don’t think so. Either way, I couldn’t be content with my current belief, because my current belief is that I don’t have enough evidence for his existence (let alone his nature). So I would have to make a decision to either accept or reject God. But I couldn’t stay the same. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/15 "2001-10-22T00:35:16Z")
Obviously, God, being all-knowing, already knows exactly what He has to do to convince me of his existence, even if I do not. Therefore the question is moot. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/16 "2001-10-22T00:47:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Obviously, God, being all-knowing, already knows exactly what He has to do to convince me of his existence, even if I do not. Therefore the question is moot. In order for the question to be moot, you must first prove that God _wants_ to prove his existence. What if he’s just content to sit back on his cloud and think, “Ha, let’s drive them mad with uncertainty.” (Or something.) ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/17 "2001-10-22T00:49:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Unbeliever \* > \*\*I am not what you would call a Christian and don’t count me to any religion but that does not mean that I don’t believe, I believe in something but I’m just not ready to give that sort of commitment. > > \*\* Eh… I do not think that word means what you think that it means 🙂 **rm1009** : 1. I’m a self-described militant agnostic. In essence, this means that I feel the universe would be logically consistent (and mathematically describable) regardless of whether it was a product of intelligent design, random chance, or mechanistic progression from defined initial conditions. Or, to put it in a way that’s relevant to the discussion, I don’t especially know whether there’s anybody in charge, but I’m fairly certain that any proof of an intelligent designer (who would be necessarily separable from its created universe) is simply not possible from within the closed system solely comprising the universe (confused yet?). Furthermore, I have no particular emotional investment in the overall question of whether such a being exists, so I have no “preferred” method of revelation, even assuming that I could conceive of an unimpeachable one. 2. See above. My “believes” are a result of much contemplation on my part, and not a result of any sort of misapprehension, ignorance, or lack of exposure to religion - not to be overproud, but I’ve probably got more experience with the theology of various religious systems than you do. It’s basically immaterial to me; however, to answer your unstated question, I cannot see any value in debasing myself by worshipping any thing, person, entity, or deity, let alone the proposed concept of one (this is the “militant” part 🙂 ). This is unlikely to change, even if I were to somehow be given incontrovertible evidence of some particular omnipotent being’s existence. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/18 "2001-10-22T00:51:13Z")
…And while I’m at it, why exactly are you asking about my curios? =) GD&R ---
**Author:** ![rm1009](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@rm1009](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rm1009)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/19 "2001-10-22T02:42:20Z")
Thank you Libertarian for welcoming me. Thank you all for your honest replies. Some Guy - thanks for making me aware of my spelling error. I wasn’t inquiring about your unusual object of art. I am sure you probably are more experienced and educated than I. Yes I am confused a little bit. Were you saying if there is an intelligent designer he would have to be living outside of this universe because he mathamatically doesn’t fit? Johnny Angel - I’m sorry if you misunderstood me. I wasn’t looking to shift any burden of proof of the existence or non-existence of God. There are alot of compelling arguments on other threads why some people don’t believe in God’s existence. It seems a few of those arguments usually end with I don’t believe in God because there is no proof. So I thought I would ask what kind of proof they would need. I am glad you asked me those question. The flip side of what I asked. I need some time to ponder my reply. I have never been asked that before. P.S. Could someone please tell me how to place a quote in a reply from a reply. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2001, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729/20 "2001-10-22T05:51:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rm1009 \* > P.S. Could someone please tell me how to place a quote in a reply from a reply. Welcome rm1009! I got the above quote by clicking on the word quote at the end of your message. (I deleted some lines so as to focus on your question). So if you want to reply directly to another post, use that method. Otherwise use: square brackets around quote (to start a quote) square brackets around /quote (to end a quote) I think this sort of stuff (including smilies :eek: ) is to be found on About This Message Board. As for God, any sort of evidence would do for me. I haven’t heard of any - do you have something to offer? Since there are so many religions, and sects within religions, it seems to me that even believers don’t agree what God is like. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-curios-question-to-those-who-ask-for-proof/88729.md?page=2)