# "A Diet For All Reasons" by Michael Klaper, M.D. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675 "2004-02-23T14:59:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sheri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sheri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sheri)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/41 "2004-02-26T00:58:54Z")
> [@John W. Kennedy](#): > > Yes, we’re rude to people who spit in the face of logic and science. > > Don’t let the door hit you on the way out. See what I mean? And I don’t understand close-minded people who let science blind them. ---
**Author:** ![Ee-At-Oes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Ee-At-Oes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ee-At-Oes)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/42 "2004-02-26T01:14:18Z")
I agree that many of Sheri’s claims were not based in science but I find it sad that some people had to be so rude about it. Debuncting myths works a lot better when the person is willing to listen and noone will listen when they are defending themselves. Seems to me that Sheri means well and crucifying someone who is wrong only serves to make them cling to the false belief even more. Not that I am convinced she is. I am not a doctor but I am in med school and if there is one thing I have learned it is that science is like a scale and on either side of many arguments you can gather data to support your beliefs. Although I eat meat and very low carbs I do believe that veganism when supplemented with vitamins is healthier for you. The human body is just not meant to digest a lot of the things we put into it. The real question is; Why do you defend your side with such anger? Are you afraid of something she is saying? -Mykl ---
**Author:** ![Ee-At-Oes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Ee-At-Oes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ee-At-Oes)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/43 "2004-02-26T01:17:59Z")
I agree that many of Sheri’s claims were not based in science but I find it sad that some people had to be so rude about it. Fighting misinformation works a lot better when the person is willing to listen and noone will listen when they are defending themselves. Seems to me that Sheri means well and crucifying someone who is wrong only serves to make them cling to the false belief even more. Not that I am convinced she is. I am not a doctor but I am in med school and if there is one thing I have learned it is that science is like a scale and on either side of many arguments you can gather data to support your beliefs. Although I eat meat and very low carbs I do believe that veganism when supplemented with vitamins is healthier for you. The human body is just not meant to digest a lot of the things we put into it. The real question is; Why do you defend your side with such anger? Are you afraid of something she is saying? -Mykl ---
**Author:** ![Sheri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sheri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sheri)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/44 "2004-02-26T01:23:46Z")
> [@Ee-At-Oes](#): > > I agree that many of Sheri’s claims were not based in science but I find it sad that some people had to be so rude about it. Fighting misinformation works a lot better when the person is willing to listen and noone will listen when they are defending themselves. > > Seems to me that Sheri means well and crucifying someone who is wrong only serves to make them cling to the false belief even more. > > Not that I am convinced she is. I am not a doctor but I am in med school and if there is one thing I have learned it is that science is like a scale and on either side of many arguments you can gather data to support your beliefs. > > Although I eat meat and very low carbs I do believe that veganism when supplemented with vitamins is healthier for you. The human body is just not meant to digest a lot of the things we put into it. > > The real question is; Why do you defend your side with such anger? Are you afraid of something she is saying? > > -Mykl Thank you! I am glad to have found some kindness here. Sheri ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/45 "2004-02-26T02:15:27Z")
> [@Sheri](#): > > And I don’t understand close-minded people who let science blind them. **Sherri** , you’ll find that several of the forums here are pretty intellectually rigorous. You’ve got about as much chance as a carrot in a juicer with an attitude like that. Rigorous argument and hard-hitting wisecracks are what Cecil – and the SDMB – are all about, at least in its best moments. Browse some more of the columns. You’ll see such gems as, “If ignorance were cornflakes, you’d be General Mills.” and that was to one of Cecil’s _fans._ The point is that you really can’t complain about the atmosphere here since that’s what makes this place go. It’s not about “kindness” or “self-esteem,” it’s about fighting ignorance and testing your own understanding against people who may well be world-class experts in their fields. You’d be surprised at the caliber of some of the people who post here – Doctors, authors, attorneys, researchers, historians, psychologists, mathematicians and scientists of almost every type. Most of the best have a tongue on them and they know how to use it. That’s why many of us come here. You seem like a fairly harmless person and intellectually ripping you a new one would be sort of like kicking a puppy. But you’re really out of your depth right now. Try MPSIMS and IMHO for a bit until you get used to the place. If you continue as you have begun, you’re going to get an education in the scientific method, a pile of studies shredding the scientific basis for veganism, and a whole barrage of other information. None of it, I predict, you’ll want to hear. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/46 "2004-02-26T04:12:27Z")
> [@Sheri](#): > > Ya know, Moriah, you must be a very unhappy person. Everything I’ve read from you has been rude and negative. I hope I am wrong. You’re not wrong in this case. I am rude and negative. However, my rudeness and negativity does not mean that you’re not wrong about everything else. Oh, your illogical ad hominen attacks isn’t going to wilt my resolve to counter your laughable defense of quackery. The people around here not only have a tough skin, but see through your smokescreen attack of my personal happiness, like I think you really care about my happiness at all. If so many people ‘attack’ you here, like you’ve experience before, then did you ever think it may be you? So, how’s that threat of storming out in a huff going? Will there actually be a final departure or more door slamming? ---
**Author:** ![meyer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@meyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meyer)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/47 "2004-02-26T07:43:17Z")
I know it’s been a while since this came up, but incidently, by real doctor, I meant a real person. You know, one you can talk to and they talk back and interact with you and examine you and stuff. A guy in a video cannot be reasonably expected to know anything about your life or medical condition because HE DOESN’T KNOW YOU. He can’t see you, or look at blood tests, or listen to your complaints. Even if he has a whackload of letters behind his name, he is neither magical or omnipotent. What I said before wasn’t really meant to be insulting. I’m a pretty voracious carnivore, but I know if my breath smelled like ROTTING MEAT I would hie me to a doctor - one that has both an M.D. on his nametag, and a knowledge of my history. In any case, I’m not sure if you read anything else I wrote after that, but you haven’t really addressed the point that I (and many others) brought up - the fact that you feel better isn’t necessarily attributable solely to veganism. You know what? About a year ago I started drinking more milk - about 6 litres a week (that’s 1 1/2 gallons, for you Americans) - and I feel much better! I could say “Everyone drink milk! Milk is great! Great for all!”, but I don’t. Because I know I feel better because I have an Acid Reflux Disorder. The acid is kept under control by milk consumption, and it works better than any other solution I’ve tried. Having said that, I know not everyone would feel better on 6 litres of milk a week. Some people are lactose intolerant. Some people just hate milk. Whatever. The point is, this anecdotal evidence (drinking milk) doesn’t mean jack squat without the context (acid reflux). So, you see, we’re not necessarily just knocking you for a fun game of ‘kick the new guy’. You start a thread here, and we expect you to come back and argue your point, in a reasonable, well-thought out debate. We expect that of EVERYONE. It’s how these boards work. ---
**Author:** ![meyer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ccd318/32.png) [@meyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meyer)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/48 "2004-02-26T07:48:41Z")
Oh, and incidently, I think it’s fabulous if you feel better. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t feel better, or a vegan diet isn’t for you. Many of my friends have tried vegetarian or vegan diets. Some have stuck with them, some have not. In either case, I have never tried to discourage anyone from trying or doing what they want. But, as soon as they try to turn me over to their new ways I get suspicious. Suspicious and annoyed, usually. I’m also not sure that veganism is a very good thing for growing children, but that’s a whole other thread, probably. ---
**Author:** ![Sheri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sheri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sheri)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/49 "2004-02-26T11:00:43Z")
Don’t forget to check out the website I mentioned above: [http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/](http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/) Be sure when you’re there to click on “Healthier Choices” ( [http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/healthier.html](http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/healthier.html) ) (No one has yet made a comment on that. Or perhaps every doctor is automatically assumed to be a “quack” if s/he promotes a vegetarian or vegan diet.) ---
**Author:** ![Shrinking\_Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Shrinking\_Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shrinking_Violet)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/50 "2004-02-26T19:38:51Z")
Here’s a link for you to check out, Sheri: [http://www.ibsgroup.org/](http://www.ibsgroup.org/) Most of the people there have severe intestinal distress, even worse than you described - and many of them happen to be vegetarian/vegan. Hasn’t helped them one iota. ---
**Author:** ![DogMom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9c0ed/32.png) [@DogMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DogMom)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/51 "2004-02-26T20:02:03Z")
> [@Sheri](#): > > Don’t forget to check out the website I mentioned above: > [http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/](http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/) > > (No one has yet made a comment on that. Or perhaps every doctor is automatically assumed to be a “quack” if s/he promotes a vegetarian or vegan diet.) Nope, not every doc is assumed to be a quack if he / she promotes a veg diet. However, a couple of things. First, that website is run by the PCRM, which isn’t exactly an “impartial” group. They’re extremely biased. Then, in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=241549&highlight=PCRM), it’s pointed out that the PCRM, which runs that website, isn’t exactly a reliable source of information. They’ve been censured publically by the AMA. **Twice**. They also have close ties to PETA, an openly violent animal-rights group. I’d prefer my information to come from a rather more impartial source, myself. ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/52 "2004-02-26T20:43:45Z")
> [@Sheri](#): > > Sorry, I know I said I was done commenting on this issue, but I had to post this link: [http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/](http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/) > > … Results do not lie. > > For instance, (sorry, this is gross), I used to suffer from constipation on a regular basis … > > I also used to suffer from severe acne. As soon as I got all the animal products out of my system, it cleared right up. > > These are just a couple of examples of personal results that do not lie. > > I would never go back to the Standard American Diet (S.A.D.). I don’t want to go back to all those problems. > > Sheri Just anecdotal of course, but I’ve been on Atkins for about nine months, and I’ve lost about 60 pounds. I’m never constipated, my skin is perfectly clear, and I feel better than I have in years. I have TONS of energy, I sleep well, and I just feel great. My diet consists mainly of chicken, fish, cheese, eggs, lots of leafy green veggies and lots of water. I never drink soda, and I don’t eat refined sugar. When I was eating lots of carbohydrates and lots of sugars, I suffered from horrible, debilitating migraines. Not just “bad headaches” but **full-blown migraines** , lasting 24-36 hours, where I’d be vomiting, shivering, shaking, blind in one eye, in wishing-to-die type of pain. Once I got all the carbs and sugars out of my diet, my migraines lessened in severity and occurance. Maybe you could accept the fact that we’re all different. What works for one person might not work for another. Some people can’t drink milk. Some people can’t eat peanuts. Some people choose not to eat meat. A vegan diet might be fine for one person, but it would never work for me. Why are you so concerned with what others eat? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/53 "2004-02-27T21:08:18Z")
**Sheri** , one thing to understand about this board. We do not attack people here (at least not in most fora: In the BBQ Pit, standards are looser. If you do not want that, stay out of the Pit). However, we absolutely do attack incorrect statements. I’ve made some incorrect statements here, too. Everyone has. And those statements got corrected in very short order. And that’s what I _like_ about this place: That if I make a mistake, it’ll get corrected. Now, I’m not saying that your statements about what veganism has done for you are incorrect. Obviously, you would know better than we how your life has changed. But it is incorrect to say that veganism is better for _everyone_, and that’s the statement that we’re attacking. It’s nothing personal. We would react the same way to anyone making the statements you’re making. On the other hand, we would not be biased against anything else you might say, just because we disagree on this. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/54 "2004-02-28T07:48:00Z")
> [@](#): > > perhaps every doctor is automatically assumed to be a “quack” if s/he promotes a vegetarian or vegan diet. They sure are by me. Anyway, this thread is making me hungry. I’ma go eat some meat now. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2004, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/55 "2004-02-28T15:00:34Z")
> [@Ee-At-Oes](#): > > The human body is just not meant to digest a lot of the things we put into it. > **(in reference to eating meat)** I hope you’re in pre-med. _shudder_ If not, wouldn’t want you as my doctor. Oh, but I am sure you “weighed” the knowledge you gained in biology and threw out what you didn’t like. Like the fact that we are designed to be meat eaters, and that we lack the ability to digest celluose. Hey, your entitled to your beliefs I suppose, but then again, so am I (like that your beliefs are nutty). ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/56 "2004-02-29T16:51:03Z")
> [@Duck Duck Goose](#): > > for some reason I’m flashing on Mark Twain’s _Roughing It_, Chapter 17: > > “And when I am far on the road to conviction, and eight men, be they > grammatical or otherwise, come forward and tell me that they have seen > the plates too; and not only seen those plates but “hefted” them, I am > convinced. I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire > Whitmer family had testified…” Uh oh … you’re risking the wrath of Monty! ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/57 "2004-02-29T17:27:42Z")
> [@Sheri](#): > > I noticed the above quote about “the plates” and the “Whitmer family”. Might you be LDS? If so, then know that the Word of Wisdom comes into play in my post about “A Diet For All Reasons” too. I don’t believe Dr. Klaper is LDS, but everything he says goes right along with the Word of Wisdom and that’s where all this started in the first place. I don’t think an LDS person would use this Mark Twain quote. Didn’t you notice that it was _disparaging_ Mormonism? And, your claim of using the Word of Wisdom[sup]1[/sup] as support for your veganism is somewhat peculiar, since Joseph Smith himself said that vegetarianism is wrong in Doctrine and Covenants 49:18-19: > [@](#): > > **18** And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God; > > **19** For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that > which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for > raiment, and that he might have in abundance. So, if you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Doctrine and Covenants is scripture, it follows that Michael Klaper M.D. is giving you advice that “is not ordained of God.” [sup]1[/sup]For anybody unfamiliar with the topic, the “Word of Wisdom” is the essential “Mormon health code,” found in Doctrine and Covenants chapter 89, which prohibits alcohol, tobacco, and coffee and tea. It also promotes eating grains, and says that eating meat is good but that it should be done “sparingly … in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.” ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/58 "2004-02-29T20:10:11Z")
Just FTR, “Fundie”, me. Not LDS. And Monty and me get along fine. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sheri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sheri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sheri)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/59 "2004-02-29T22:17:49Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > I don’t think an LDS person would use this Mark Twain quote. Didn’t you notice that it was _disparaging_ Mormonism? > > And, your claim of using the Word of Wisdom[sup]1[/sup] as support for your veganism is somewhat peculiar, since Joseph Smith himself said that vegetarianism is wrong in Doctrine and Covenants 49:18-19: > > So, if you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Doctrine and Covenants is scripture, it follows that Michael Klaper M.D. is giving you advice that “is not ordained of God.” > > [sup]1[/sup]For anybody unfamiliar with the topic, the “Word of Wisdom” is the essential “Mormon health code,” found in Doctrine and Covenants chapter 89, which prohibits alcohol, tobacco, and coffee and tea. It also promotes eating grains, and says that eating meat is good but that it should be done “sparingly … in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.” See Doctrine and Covenants 49:21a (footnote) and 89:15 Sections 49 and 59 were both written approx. 2 yrs. prior to section 89. Sections 49 and 59 tell us it is okay to use animals for food. Then approx. 2 yrs. later section 89 gets very specific about WHEN it is okay to use animals for food. Often, Mormons use sections 49 and 59 as an excuse to ignore parts of section 89. But it’s there in black and white - very specific on when it is okay to use animals for food. If LDS people followed the Word of Wisdom to the fullest, they would not use animals for food in the summer and they would use animals for food, “only in times of famine and excess of hunger.” But, if you are LDS, you know this is not the case with LDS people. The majority ignore that part of the Word of Wisdom. If you’re LDS, you might be interested in this: [http://www.ldshea.org/pages/family\_health/words\_of\_the\_prophets.htm](http://www.ldshea.org/pages/family_health/words_of_the_prophets.htm) ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/60 "2004-02-29T22:30:28Z")
Yes, it is there in black and white – despite the limitations placed on meat eating, it is explicitly stated throughout Mormon scripture, including in the Word of Wisdom, that abstaining from meat entirely is not good. Applying this to your situation, you have a constant theme through official Mormon scripture that says veganism is wrong. You can say that you don’t choose to believe those parts of the D&C, or whatever you need to say to reconcile your two belief systems, but you can’t say that you are following the Word of Wisdom if you are a vegan (assuming that you don’t abandon your veganism in the winter or times of famine) because you aren’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675.md?page=4)