# "A Diet For All Reasons" by Michael Klaper, M.D. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675 "2004-02-23T14:59:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/121 "2004-03-02T01:33:29Z")
> [@Sheri](#): > > So - how are we to know what is wrong and what is correct? Or do we just hope for the best? Like I said, we use the BEST EVIDENCE we have available and draw conclusions from that. For example, we did not have microscopes until about 1590, so before then, the pathological microbiological theory of disease was rather hard to come up with, no? ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/122 "2004-03-02T01:36:50Z")
> [@Sheri](#): > > Yes, that sound medical “fallible” science. Right. The kind that has given us antibiotics, non-invasive surgery, the pathological theory of disease–basically anything that has kept you alive until this point. Are you saying that Kepler is not practicing sound medical science in the above statement? Look, you can make all your arguments about “what feels good is good for me,” but science is the only way to know for sure. Heroin feels great when you do it–but if you do too much, you OD and die. Cause: Too much heroin Effect: Fatal overdose Conclusion: Too much heroin causes a fatal overdose Replication: Everyone who does too much heroin dies WOW, SCIENCE IN ACTION. “aw, but I never felt better…” ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/123 "2004-03-02T01:38:02Z")
> [@Sheri](#): > > Now here’s a question for you. Are you sure that milk and honey actually mean what you think they mean, scripturally that is? > > As we’ve seen, there can be different meanings attached to things, i.e. meat meaning grain or any kind of meal, and even fruit - as it says in Genesis. There are many places in the scriptures where the word “meat” is used, but the word doesn’t mean flesh. But we may think it means flesh, because of how the word “meat” is commonly used today. Hence, there is misunderstanding. I hate to break this to you, but the bible wasn’t actually written in 17th century English. Are you sure that milk doesn’t mean “milk” and that “honey” doesn’t mean “honey?” Well, whether you’re sure or not, I think you’ll find that in the original, they do. I’m sure one of our resident Hebrew scholars will be along in a moment to confirm that “the land of milk and honey” isn’t more properly translated as “the land of soybeans and leafy vegetables.” As for your snipes at Atkins, you should be aware that there is an immense scientific controversy surrounding Atkins going on right this very minute. [http://www.womens-health.org/press/NewsService/atkins.htm](http://www.womens-health.org/press/NewsService/atkins.htm) The preliminary data suggests that the institutional jump to the low-fat model may have been bad science. Further studies are in the works. Unfortunately for you, if these studies pan out, it will pretty much destroy the idea that vegetarianism is somehow “natural” for humans. As I’ve pointed out, those who practice Veganism don’t even pretend that it’s somehow “natural.” As for the “food pyramid,” even the U.S. government recognizes that it doesn’t work in practice and is re-designing it. [http://www.azcentral.com/health/diet/articles/0128foodpryamid-ON.html](http://www.azcentral.com/health/diet/articles/0128foodpryamid-ON.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sheri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sheri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sheri)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/124 "2004-03-02T01:40:18Z")
> [@nameless](#): > > Like I said, we use the BEST EVIDENCE we have available and draw conclusions from that. For example, we did not have microscopes until about 1590, so before then, the pathological microbiological theory of disease was rather hard to come up with, no? I agree. And that is why I’m saying that we cannot dismiss veganism as “quackery” or, excuse me, we cannot refer to doctors and scientists who support veganism as “quacks”. There may just be things that we do not know yet. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/125 "2004-03-02T01:45:11Z")
> [@x-ray vision](#): > > I must repeat myself. NO ONE HERE CALLED VEGANISM QUACKERY!!! Allow me. Veganism is quackery. Veganism isn’t science. Veganism doesn’t claim to be science. It’s a philosophical movement. Don’t you people read? You may agree with the philosophical tenets underlying Veganism and so adopt the Vegan lifestyle. That’s fine. But there is no scientific basis for Vegan health benefits (as opposed to garden variety vegetarianism) you’ll never hear an echo from someone who claims otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/126 "2004-03-02T01:46:23Z")
> [@Sheri](#): > > I agree. And that is why I’m saying that we cannot dismiss veganism as “quackery” or, excuse me, we cannot refer to doctors and scientists who support veganism as “quacks”. There may just be things that we do not know yet. Nobody is dismissing veganism as quackery! Stop making that insinuation! Look, I may have a theory that purple elephants from space are causing all human disease and that we must mount an offensive against them, but I would have no evidence to back it up. Now, people in this thread have made it clear that they believe Klaper has also failed to provide sufficient evidence. This is all anyone has ever said. You talk about the man like he’s your own personal messiah and all, **all** anyone has done is ask you to provide some concrete evidence. Anything you have submitted has been pretty well refuted (the intestine argument, for example) thus far. Nobody is condemning vegetarianism. They are condemning Klaper. Please address their points sans hyperbole. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/127 "2004-03-02T01:46:25Z")
OK, for the third time **Sherri** , NO ONE HERE refered to doctors and scientists who support veganism as “quacks” for that reason. There _may_ just be things that we do not know yet.? Yes, we’re all in agreement here on that one. So what? ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/128 "2004-03-02T01:50:27Z")
> [@Truth Seeker](#): > > Allow me. Veganism is quackery. Dammit, **Truth Seeker,** she’s never going to let go of that comment now. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sheri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sheri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sheri)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/129 "2004-03-02T01:51:58Z")
> [@nameless](#): > > Now, people in this thread have made it clear that they believe Klaper has also failed to provide sufficient evidence. Yes, and they’ve all done it _without_ even watching the video, which _I_ found to be very sound scientific evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Sheri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sheri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sheri)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/130 "2004-03-02T01:55:11Z")
> [@nameless](#): > > Dammit, **Truth Seeker,** she’s never going to let go of that comment now. 🙂 No, don’t worry. I’m not biting. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/131 "2004-03-02T01:58:41Z")
> [@Sheri](#): > > Yes, and they’ve all done it _without_ even watching the video, which _I_ found to be very sound scientific evidence. Hm, well yes! I, nameless, also have a video! Jam-packed with pertinent information that irreparably denounces vegetarianism! Sound scientific evidence in spades! You won’t find this information anywhere else! Oh, but you have to send me $20 to see it. Sorry. Can you provide any free source of information that refutes what people have said? ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/132 "2004-03-02T02:00:02Z")
> [@nameless](#): > > The **fallible** kind. The **only** kind. . . . Because science occasionally fails does not mean that everything it says is wrong. Bollocks, with a cherry on top. There is no such thing as “fallible” science. Properly understood, the scientific method is infallible and gives rise to infallible claims. Science doesn’t make absolute statements. It builds a working model that allows prediction. It also provides a built-in method of refining that model. When the current model doesn’t adequately predict something, this new data gets worked into a new model that does adequately explain the new data. Science works – every single time. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/133 "2004-03-02T02:03:42Z")
> [@Truth Seeker](#): > > There is no such thing as “fallible” science. Properly understood, the scientific method is infallible and gives rise to infallible claims. Science doesn’t make absolute statements. It builds a working model that allows prediction. It also provides a built-in method of refining that model. > > When the current model doesn’t adequately predict something, this new data gets worked into a new model that does adequately explain the new data. Science works – every single time. “Properly understood” is the operative phrase. I don’t think **Sherri** properly understands the concept of the scientific method in that she thinks revisions to the Food Pyramid are symptoms of a complete and systemic failure of the practice of science… ---
**Author:** ![Sheri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sheri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sheri)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/134 "2004-03-02T02:06:23Z")
> [@nameless](#): > > Can you provide any free source of information that refutes what people have said? The Internet. The Library. All free. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/135 "2004-03-02T02:08:56Z")
> [@Sheri](#): > > The Internet. The Library. All free. (sigh) Yes. Now go get some of that and bring it back here to support your arguments if you want to be taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Sheri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sheri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sheri)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/136 "2004-03-02T02:13:04Z")
> [@nameless](#): > > “Properly understood” is the operative phrase. I don’t think **Sheri** properly understands the concept of the scientific method in that she thinks revisions to the Food Pyramid are symptoms of a complete and systemic failure of the practice of science… Yes, I believe science has made loads of wonderful and amazing discoveries. But there is even more still that we do not know. How can we, as imperfect human beings, be so prideful in thinking that we know so much, when there is a whole entire universe that we don’t understand. There is more unknown than known and that is the bottom line, something that we must not forget in our high and mighty technological age. We’ve learned a lot, but we don’t know it all. ---
**Author:** ![Sheri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sheri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sheri)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/137 "2004-03-02T02:15:40Z")
> [@nameless](#): > > (sigh) > > Yes. Now go get some of that and bring it back here to support your arguments if you want to be taken seriously. You’re kidding, right? It doesn’t matter if it’s free or not. If I bring it here, it’ll get shot down for sure. Nobody wants to step out of their belief system. It’s too uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/138 "2004-03-02T02:17:43Z")
> [@Sheri](#): > > Yes, I believe science has made loads of wonderful and amazing discoveries. But there is even more still that we do not know. How can we, as imperfect human beings, be so prideful in thinking that we know so much, when there is a whole entire universe that we don’t understand. There is more unknown than known and that is the bottom line, something that we must not forget in our high and mighty technological age. We’ve learned a lot, but we don’t know it all. I fail to see the point. So we should act randomly since science has left so much unexplained? Can you provide rational justification for acting in any other way than in accordance with what science dictates? I don’t think you, or I, or anyone else can. ---
**Author:** ![Sheri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sheri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sheri)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/139 "2004-03-02T02:22:30Z")
> [@nameless](#): > > I fail to see the point. So we should act randomly since science has left so much unexplained? No, but I think we should all remember where we fall in the entire scheme of things. We are human. We make mistakes. We do the best that we can, but there will always be more to discover, more to re-think. We need to remember that, lest we get “too smart for our britches”. We do our best with what we know, but need to stay open-minded in order to learn new things in the future. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675/140 "2004-03-02T02:25:21Z")
> [@Sheri](#): > > You’re kidding, right? It doesn’t matter if it’s free or not. If I bring it here, it’ll get shot down for sure. Nobody wants to step out of their belief system. It’s too uncomfortable. This is infuriating. You give an argument and then fail to provide any rational justification for it, claiming that nobody will consider it. You leap into this forum, tell us all to send money for a video that will change our lives and then produce no corraborating evidence. Of course your evidence will be shot down. That’s how a debate works. You then pick up the pieces and continue arguing with fresh evidence (if you can find it) concede defeat (if you are so gracious) or appeal to a matter of personal faith. Have you anything substantial to offer us? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diet-for-all-reasons-by-michael-klaper-m-d/230675.md?page=8)