# A difficult question about race and sterotypes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190 "2015-02-20T13:32:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/41 "2015-02-20T15:48:56Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Ditto racial profiling. Most black youths don’t steal. A few steal small amounts. A very few are violent and dangerous. But selectively treating them all with heightened fears they will steal is highly inefficient, even if you know a few of them will shoplift. That depends on the circumstances. I know of one grocery store where the vast majority of the shoppers were white and a small minority were black. But virtually all the shoplifting was done by blacks (according to the store manager) so on rare occasions that a black entered they were watched like hawks. It’s a bit more complicated in that instance, because the store was at the border of a middle-class white neighborhood and a ghetto-type black neighborhood, so it wasn’t just about skin color. But that’s how that manager identified the targets. One thing to consider is that in some businesses (like groceries) the mark-up per item is relatively small, so one successful shoplifter can wipe out the profits of many many sales. This impacts the cost-benefit analysis of preventing shoplifters versus alienating shoppers. > [@](#): > > Or perhaps El Al’s policy when screening air passengers. Ostensibly, they don’t profile solely based on religion/ethnic group. So, it’s not like they single out Muslims. They claim it’s inefficient and doesn’t really help. Rather, they claim it’s better to take behavioral cues and other information to create a more accurate profile for potential threats. That’s a bad example. El Al most definitely uses ethnicity as a big part of their profiling. It’s not all of it, but it’s definitely a big part of it. I think there are very few people who would advocate (or practice) profiling where race is the only factor (e.g. more suspicious of a middle-aged black man with a suit than a trashy looking white teenager). ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/42 "2015-02-20T16:00:17Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But that’s how that manager identified the targets. Meh. So economic conditions are correlated with crime statistics. No surprise. While racial profiling may or may not be a system that works (if only psychologically) for the manager, it’s still inefficient, as the NYPD has found. People can use whatever system they want to judge. That’s not really the debate. The debate is how “logical” it is. In this case, it’s not especially logical, except to the extent it’s also correlated with other factors, including economic. Again, the high false positive rate is the key aspect. Most judiciously designed detection methods try to balance a low false positive rate with a sufficiently high detection rate. It’s a poor system that turns the knob all the way up and detects both at high rates. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s a bad example. El Al most definitely uses ethnicity as a big part of their profiling. It’s not all of it, but it’s definitely a big part of it. It’s a part of the analysis but only a part. Using race or ethnicity as the sole proxy is inefficient. Using it (and other factors) in a multi-variate analysis may actually be efficient. That’s the point they have, and actually a criticism Israeli security officials have made about racial profiling systems in the US. And that’s rather what the OP is suggesting - using race as the primary tool for identifying potential shoplifters. People actually ARE suggesting using race as the main factor. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/43 "2015-02-20T16:04:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That depends on the circumstances. > > I know of one grocery store where the vast majority of the shoppers were white and a small minority were black. But virtually all the shoplifting was done by blacks (according to the store manager) so on rare occasions that a black entered they were watched like hawks. > > It’s a bit more complicated in that instance, because the store was at the border of a middle-class white neighborhood and a ghetto-type black neighborhood, so it wasn’t just about skin color. But that’s how that manager identified the targets. If that’s how the manager identified the targets, it’s no wonder that those are the people he caught shoplifting. [This study](http://0-search.proquest.com.wncln.wncln.org/docview/228204010?accountid=14968) (which I unfortunately cannot find available through a non-academic source) is called “WHO ACTUALLY STEALS? A STUDY OF COVERTLY OBSERVED SHOPLIFTERS.” It sets up a very rigorous methodology for watching for shoplifters with no opportunity for bias, at a drug store near Atlanta with a very diverse clientele. I confess I don’t understand all their statistical analysis. However, some of their findings are very interesting: > [@](#): > > After simultaneously controlling for the other 14 variables, we observe changes in several of the bivariate associations noted earlier in Table 1. First, males no longer appear to be more likely to shoplift than females (although the coefficient is nearly significant). Black and Hispanic shoppers are no more likely to shoplift than those who are white. Further, shoppers of Asian or other descent are no less likely than whites to commit theft. Persons who are at least 55 years old are not less likely to shoplift than those who are under 35. Summer months no longer appear to be more predictive of shoplifting, and those whose cueing behavior was unrecorded by the observers appear to shoplift with the same probability as those who had data inserted into this field of the data template but failed to exhibit suspicious behavioral cues. > > While demographic characteristics are important in predicting shoplifting, the two behavioral variables appear to carry more influence. For example, the odds of stealing for a person who exhibits one of the three cues of shoplifting (e.g., “scans” the store, tampers with products, displays awareness of security countermeasures, or samples products) are 6.25 times higher than for those who exhibit no such behavior. Finally, those who exit the store without having made a purchase are almost six times more likely to be carrying a stolen product than those who walked out of the store after buying something at the checkout. > > Referring again to Table 2, note that, after controlling for other variables, three demographic variables remain significantly associated with theft. Adults between the ages of 35 to 54 have nearly 1.7 greater odds of shoplifting than do persons younger than 35. And finally, the data indicate that, for every 23 lower- or working-class persons who shoplift, there are 10 middle- or upper-class persons who also shoplift. > … > The lack of a direct relationship between sex, race, and shoplifting runs counter to the stereotypical assumptions underlying commonly held profiling strategies. In particular, many of the popularly held stereotypes of criminal behavior not only make the assumption that nonwhite shoppers steal more, but this is especially true for males. > … > Odds ratios of the significant variables are displayed in the bar chart of Figure 2. The most significant finding that can be derived from this graph is that a shopper’s behavior, not their race or gender, is by far the single strongest predictor of whether he or she is likely to steal. > … > The results also show that persons who appear to be from the lower class or the working class are significantly more likely to steal. Finally, the results yield the following race/gender interaction effects: Hispanic females are more likely than any other race/gender grouping to shoplift, black females are just as prone to shoplifting as all males, and white females are least likely to steal. > … > speaking directly to the heart of the profiling debate, our findings with regard to the age and race of offenders did not match up well with findings observed in previous analyses. Membership in the juvenile or young adult category was not predictive of shoplifting. Instead, we found that middle-aged shoppers (35 to 54) were the more common shoplifters. This finding coincides with Haves’ (1993, 7) characterization of opportunistic thieves that the author calls “primary household shoppers” or “impulse shoplifters.” These persons are described as gainfully employed, middle-aged adults who occasionally steal as a means of acquiring goods that stretch beyond the household budget. This group of thieves does not attract much attention from loss prevention professionals but is thought to comprise a significant portion of the shoplifting population. > > Turning to race, our data show that, in general, nonwhites were no more likely to shoplift than were whites. However, upon closer examination several noteworthy race-sex effects were discovered. Hispanic females were more likely than any other race/gender grouping to shoplift. Black females were just as prone to shoplift as all males. Finally, white females were least likely to steal. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/44 "2015-02-20T16:31:34Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Meh. So economic conditions are correlated with crime statistics. No surprise. Right. But as a practical matter, this guy was racially profiling, even if the underlying factors were economic. If a black guy walked into the store with no intention to steal anything he still got watched. > [@](#): > > While racial profiling may or may not be a system that works (if only psychologically) for the manager, it’s still inefficient, as the NYPD has found. As noted, it depends on the circumstances. What may be inefficient for the NYPD might be efficient for that shopkeeper. > [@](#): > > It’s a part of the analysis but only a part. Using race or ethnicity as the sole proxy is inefficient. Using it (and other factors) in a multi-variate analysis may actually be efficient. That’s the point they have, and actually a criticism Israeli security officials have made about racial profiling systems in the US. > > And that’s rather what the OP is suggesting - using race as the primary tool for identifying potential shoplifters. People actually ARE suggesting using race as the main factor. I don’t see where the OP said race was primary, as he specified a “suspicious” black guy which implies other factors. But at any rate, much of the discussion in this thread seems to be aimed at precluding any use of race, to which your El Al example would be a counter-example. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If that’s how the manager identified the targets, it’s no wonder that those are the people he caught shoplifting. Assuming that he began profiling them off the bat and not based on prior experience. We don’t know that. > [@](#): > > [This study](http://0-search.proquest.com.wncln.wncln.org/docview/228204010?accountid=14968) (which I unfortunately cannot find available through a non-academic source) is called “WHO ACTUALLY STEALS? A STUDY OF COVERTLY OBSERVED SHOPLIFTERS.” It sets up a very rigorous methodology for watching for shoplifters with no opportunity for bias, at a drug store near Atlanta with a very diverse clientele. > > I confess I don’t understand all their statistical analysis. However, some of their findings are very interesting: Per your quote there were some examples of race/sex being valid predictors (though whether it would make their use efficient would depend on how strong the correlation is, which is not specified in your quote. E.g. if Hispanic women were 1% more likely than the other groups to shoplift, there’s not much you can do with that). But the broader point is that even if shoplifting is exactly evenly distributed by race/gender, there could still be specific circumstances where it’s very much correlated, due to population subgroups which differ by class or other relevant factors which are harder to identify than skin color. So the dynamic is still present. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/45 "2015-02-20T16:39:48Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Per your quote there were some examples of race/sex being valid predictors (though whether it would make their use efficient would depend on how strong the correlation is, which is not specified in your quote. E.g. if Hispanic women were 1% more likely than the other groups to shoplift, there’s not much you can do with that). Yes–but not in the direction that stereotypes generally suggest, or even that trained observers in their study predicted. The point here is that when there are correlations, anecdotal observation is hugely unlikely to identify those correlations accurately. > [@](#): > > But the broader point is that even if shoplifting is exactly evenly distributed by race/gender, there could still be specific circumstances where it’s very much correlated, due to population subgroups which differ by class or other relevant factors which are harder to identify than skin color. So the dynamic is still present. Well, no. All the data gathered was through observation. The factors they discovered that were strong indicators were necessarily factors that could be observed. Take, for example, the disparity between working class dress and middle-class dress. They found that folks dressed in middle-class clothes were less likely to shoplift. And it’s likely that in the OP’s scenario, white people are likelier to wear middle-class clothes. It might be tempting to use that correlation to justify laxer observation of white people. That would be a mistake, even if it weren’t probably illegal. Since the clothing is the better indicator, use that as the indicator. Don’t find a less-accurate correlative indicator to use instead. And again, the study found that far and away the best observable indicator of shoplifting was behavior: scanning the store, sampling products, messing with packaging, staying a short while and leaving without making a purchase. These are the factors that should be used to identify shoplifters. Why? In an earlier post, I suggested four problems with racial profiling. Using behavioral profiling avoids all four problems. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/46 "2015-02-20T16:46:30Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yes–but not in the direction that stereotypes generally suggest, or even that trained observers in their study predicted. The point here is that when there are correlations, anecdotal observation is hugely unlikely to identify those correlations accurately. They need to compare it to what people with actual experience running the specific stores have experienced, and not to stereotypes or “trained observers” (whatever that means in this context). > [@](#): > > Take, for example, the disparity between working class dress and middle-class dress. They found that folks dressed in middle-class clothes were less likely to shoplift. And it’s likely that in the OP’s scenario, white people are likelier to wear middle-class clothes. It might be tempting to use that correlation to justify laxer observation of white people. > > That would be a mistake, even if it weren’t probably illegal. Since the clothing is the better indicator, use that as the indicator. Don’t find a less-accurate correlative indicator to use instead. I would think most stereotypers do include clothing, as above. But clothing is very imprecise even if it’s more highly correlated, since it’s much more frequently indeterminate. > [@](#): > > And again, the study found that far and away the best observable indicator of shoplifting was behavior: scanning the store, sampling products, messing with packaging, staying a short while and leaving without making a purchase. These are the factors that should be used to identify shoplifters. These factors are much more useful for researchers sitting back and studying videotape after the fact than to a shopkeeper who needs to decide what to do as soon as someone enters the store. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/47 "2015-02-20T16:46:59Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > this seems like the correct response… except that now, are you treating all young people as criminals? They’re not? More seriously - we, as a society, have decided that some forms of discrimination (hebeism? youthism) are OK, some (racism) are not. Kids can’t drive, drink, fuck. They are most definitely not, in that sense, a protected class. Race _is_. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/48 "2015-02-20T16:48:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If that’s how the manager identified the targets, it’s no wonder that those are the people he caught shoplifting. > > [This study](http://0-search.proquest.com.wncln.wncln.org/docview/228204010?accountid=14968) (which I unfortunately cannot find available through a non-academic source) is called “WHO ACTUALLY STEALS? A STUDY OF COVERTLY OBSERVED SHOPLIFTERS.” It sets up a very rigorous methodology for watching for shoplifters with no opportunity for bias, at a drug store near Atlanta with a very diverse clientele. This is all fine and well in the abstract. But what if the ACTUAL numbers at the store in questions are what was presented. How would you answer the OP for that on particular store, which we have stipulated, suffers from shoplifting in the proportion presented? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/49 "2015-02-20T16:48:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > They’re not? > > More seriously - we, as a society, have decided that some forms of discrimination (hebeism? youthism) are OK, some (racism) are not. Kids can’t drive, drink, fuck. They are most definitely not, in that sense, a protected class. Race _is_. “hebeism” made me go :eek: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/50 "2015-02-20T16:50:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is all fine and well in the abstract. But what if the ACTUAL numbers at the store in questions are what was presented. How would you answer the OP for that on particular store, which we have stipulated, suffers from shoplifting in the proportion presented? That’s the thing – any ACTUAL numbers at any store will only be what the store sees. They won’t catch all shoplifters – they probably won’t even catch most. Unless they have a superhuman inventory tracking system and inventory themselves daily, much and probably most of their shoplifting will be unnoticed for far too long to have any idea who actually did it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/51 "2015-02-20T17:05:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is all fine and well in the abstract. But what if the ACTUAL numbers at the store in questions are what was presented. How would you answer the OP for that on particular store, which we have stipulated, suffers from shoplifting in the proportion presented? How are you determining the ACTUAL numbers at the store in question? If it’s through anecdotal observation, this study pretty persuasively indicates that’s not an accurate means for determining the ACTUAL numbers. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > They need to compare it to what people with actual experience running the specific stores have experienced, and not to stereotypes or “trained observers” (whatever that means in this context). Same question: the people “with actual experience running the specific stores” are humans subject to racist assumptions and confirmation bias, just like everyone else. The beauty of science is that experiments can be devised to eliminate such variables. The people with actual experience running stores are unlikely to have an accurate sense of the actual demographics of actual (not just caught) shoplifters, unless they have been engaging in very rigorous data-keeping. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/52 "2015-02-20T17:12:56Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > You will then have legal cover if the clerk turns out to be a SJW Or, you know, an average, decent person who objects to being drafted into enabling racial profiling. Which may be synonymous with “SJW” in certain circles, I suppose. Since my opinion of people who use “SJW” as a pejorative really doesn’t belong in GD at all, I’ll leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/53 "2015-02-20T17:15:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Same question: the people “with actual experience running the specific stores” are humans subject to racist assumptions and confirmation bias, just like everyone else. The beauty of science is that experiments can be devised to eliminate such variables. The people with actual experience running stores are unlikely to have an accurate sense of the actual demographics of actual (not just caught) shoplifters, unless they have been engaging in very rigorous data-keeping. That’s life. You can’t always be absolutely certain that your experience is completely accurate and doesn’t reflect, to one extent or another, some hidden bias or cultural indoctrination on your part. You do your best. It’s not reasonable to expect people to toss out everything they’ve learned in life on the off-chance that some study will prove it to have a faulty basis. And it’s especially so in this case, where - as indicated earlier - the correlation will be highly specific to the store in question, and it’s extremely unlikely that any valid study exists which would be better than actual experince relating to the store in question. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/54 "2015-02-20T17:20:40Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’s life. You can’t always be absolutely certain that your experience is completely accurate and doesn’t reflect, to one extent or another, some hidden bias or cultural indoctrination on your part. You can, however, choose to recognize that sometimes science shows your raw perceptions are faulty. The stars at night aren’t actually tiny; wearing my lucky socks won’t help my baseball team win; vaccines don’t cause autism; my perceptions about who is shoplifting don’t match who’s actually shoplifting. In this case, again, the evidence is that perceptions do not match reality. We can always wave our hands at scientific research and choose to reject it. But if you really want to do your best, you pay attention to the research. Which, again, is what professionals in the field are doing. I earlier linked to a long review of shoplifting, written for retail managers; their advice dovetails with what the research shows. Folks with genuine expertise in the field, not just anecdotes based on racist preconceptions, agree. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/55 "2015-02-20T17:25:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “hebeism” made me go :eek: Not _that_ kind of [hebe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebephilia). Although [Ephebism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia) might fit better. But what do I know, I ain’t a Greek-talking-guy. aaah, wait, I see there might already be a word for it. [I was close](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebiphobia). ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/56 "2015-02-20T17:27:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You can, however, choose to recognize that sometimes science shows your raw perceptions are faulty. As general knowledge it’s useful to keep in mind. But anyone who dismisses everything they’ve learned from experience because science sometimes shows that experience to be wrong is making a mistake. > [@](#): > > In this case, again, the evidence is that perceptions do not match reality. We can always wave our hands at scientific research and choose to reject it. But if you really want to do your best, you pay attention to the research. If someone researched your particular store, this makes a lot of sense. Otherwise, a lot less. (Useful to know anyway, as it may shed some light on it even at your store, but you can’t over-ride all your specific experience based on a study of some other situation.) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/57 "2015-02-20T17:28:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > How are you determining the ACTUAL numbers at the store in question? If it’s through anecdotal observation, this study pretty persuasively indicates that’s not an accurate means for determining the ACTUAL numbers. It was a hypothetical. Assume that with perfect knowledge the numbers are as the OP related them. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/58 "2015-02-20T17:33:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It was a hypothetical. Assume that with perfect knowledge the numbers are as the OP related them. First, to fight the hypothetical: with perfect knowledge, I have no reason to stereotype, I just ban the actual shoplifters. Second, to fight it a little more: you really mean slightly less than perfect knowledge, i.e., perfect knowledge of the race of shoplifters but nothing else. In that case, I wonder what kind of creepy racist god insists on giving me that level of knowledge. Third, to stop fighting the hypothetical: remember before when I listed four problems with racial stereotyping? Given your hypothetical, one of those problems no longer exists. The other three remain (going forward you’ll still suffer from confirmation bias, unless Creepy Racist God continues to feed you numbers; you’ll be a pain in the ass to innocent black people; and it’s illegal). As for the continued rejection of science in favor of anecdote, at this point I become more concerned with a follow-up question: how do we prevent shopkeepers from breaking the law in this manner? It’s pretty clear that our measures in place currently are ineffective; **fuzzy\_wuzzy** has even offered advice in this thread how to circumvent these laws. What do we need to do to enforce anti-discrimination laws? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/59 "2015-02-20T18:24:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [Read this article](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jerome-d-williams/barneys-shoplifting-racial-profiling_b_4318452.html) on the issue. In short, stats on the racial demographics of shoplifting are highly complex, but there’s good evidence that exactly the phenomenon I’m implying occurs–namely, that racist retail managers and workers overidentify black people as potential shoplifters and underidentify white people as potential shoplifters, to the detriment of law-abiding black people and the benefit of white shoplifters. This process skews available statistics on shoplifting, since the racist suspicions allow white shoplifters to remain undetected. wow, thanks for taking the time to look up those articles. i bookmarked them. they were very helpful. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190/60 "2015-02-20T19:34:23Z")
What I’d like is to put some of the people in this thread in that store as an awned, where their livelihood depends just on how well the store does. Something tells me their scrutiny wold stop being so idealistically egalitarian. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-difficult-question-about-race-and-sterotypes/713190.md?page=4)